Containerized shipping

Given it seems railroads will be introduced soon, it seems to me that containerized shipping would be also high on the agenda, though it would require some conversion of the merchant fleet. Perhaps the flatcars would be designed to hold quarter and half sized containers that could be fit through hatches between masts, with steam vessels ultimately carrying full sized containers.

At least in some locations, it might even be possible to have roll on, roll off operation - say between Delthak and Kings Harbor and Port Royal (and the other naval/army ports).

Hildum wrote:Given it seems railroads will be introduced soon, it seems to me that containerized shipping would be also high on the agenda, though it would require some conversion of the merchant fleet. Perhaps the flatcars would be designed to hold quarter and half sized containers that could be fit through hatches between masts, with steam vessels ultimately carrying full sized containers.

At least in some locations, it might even be possible to have roll on, roll off operation - say between Delthak and Kings Harbor and Port Royal (and the other naval/army ports).

Wont work for wooden hulled ships, to much dead space taken up by dunage. Plus how would they move the cargo containers around on a ship when loading and wooden ships also have to balance there loads much more carefully because of stability problems.

I have to agree that all-up shipping containers are still a while off due to lack of shipping and possibly lack of steel.

What might happen is a standardized size four-way pallet with crate/cage variants for use in railroad cars, dragon wagons, warehousing and possibly ships. Not having to break bulk as often and being able to use something like a pallet jack or standardized light crane to speed load/unloading seem too obvious and handy to overlook. Something like a standard 48"x48" or 40"x48" and possibly half-sized variants looks quite possible.

I wonder if OWL might mention the bakfiets to Howsmyn. He's already got normal bicycle production up and running so it isn't a stretch.

Hi ErikM,

This has been a subject of several threads here over the years, including 4 way pallets and forklifts which have been invented for less than 75 and 100 years respectively.

Steamships, whether steam and sail or steam only, will be needed to take advantage of containerization, since galleons were never designed for them, nor worth the effort of conversion.

Bakfiets might already be in use at Delthak and for deliveries in Tellesburg, since it isn't much of a stretch from a bike in the first place, although who got credit for inventing it may be amusing; perhaps a woman?

L

ErikM wrote:I have to agree that all-up shipping containers are still a while off due to lack of shipping and possibly lack of steel.

What might happen is a standardized size four-way pallet with crate/cage variants for use in railroad cars, dragon wagons, warehousing and possibly ships. Not having to break bulk as often and being able to use something like a pallet jack or standardized light crane to speed load/unloading seem too obvious and handy to overlook. Something like a standard 48"x48" or 40"x48" and possibly half-sized variants looks quite possible.

I wonder if OWL might mention the bakfiets to Howsmyn. He's already got normal bicycle production up and running so it isn't a stretch.

ErikM wrote:I have to agree that all-up shipping containers are still a while off due to lack of shipping and possibly lack of steel.

What might happen is a standardized size four-way pallet with crate/cage variants for use in railroad cars, dragon wagons, warehousing and possibly ships. Not having to break bulk as often and being able to use something like a pallet jack or standardized light crane to speed load/unloading seem too obvious and handy to overlook. Something like a standard 48"x48" or 40"x48" and possibly half-sized variants looks quite possible.

I wonder if OWL might mention the bakfiets to Howsmyn. He's already got normal bicycle production up and running so it isn't a stretch.

A timber based container system is possible (having dealt with timber crates in standard container sizes for heavy equipment). The major limitation is the requirement for ships built around the containers, as all modern container ships are as bulk carriers would be unknown at this level of development (these formed the hulls for the first generation of container ships on our timeline). A sail powered container ship is possible with masts at slightly over a container length apart. Cargo handling would be easier with a square rig as opposed to the Safehold standard schooner rig but not impossible. (An aerofoil wing rig would be another option). You would also want the ship to have its own cargo cranes able to lift containers to the wharf unassisted.
The key to making this work would be railway's to deliver the containers to the docks at both ends. A 20'(8'x8') container is exactly the size of a typical early two axle box car so this would be a logical starting point with a stretch later. (Longer cars need two axle bogies, an added complexity).
Sail powered ships generally need clear decks for sail handling so designing the shipping containers with smooth water proof roofs to serve as decks and cargo hatches whilst underway would be essential. Having timber rails for the container to drop into the hull will eliminate on-board dunage (one of the reasons for going to containers in the first place).
For load planning you need to know the weight of each container and a skilled load master to pre-plan the load out before the ship docks and make the container train up in the most efficient order. All this is possible but requires a level of planning foreign to the medieval mind set (particularly the medieval mind set of most dock workers...(particularly as they go from essential workers to military draftee candidates)).
The other problem is getting the containers back, as right from the start, in Haiti, they vanished at a remarkable rate into backyards as storage sheds and temporary (or not so temporary) warehouses.
Containerization is a system requiring a complex interaction of all the parts to make it work including both the land and sea components. (A dragon hauled skel or steam powered straddle carrier would be an interesting variation).

Containerization in wooden hulled ships just seems like a bad idea. It's possible that it might work OK for smaller standardized containers like 48"x48", but trying to go bigger just seems like more trouble than it's worth.

I might be oversimplifying things here, but I think that if you can manufacture a 20' long cargo container strong enough to be lifted in one piece with a significant load of cargo inside, then you can probably build entire ships out of steel, and should be doing so.

Britain's railways introduced a "standardised" set of containers, smaller than the ISO containers.

"Closed containers were all between 6' 6" to 7' 6" high and they were built in two basic floor sizes, short and long, both 7' 7 1/2" wide with the smaller types being 6' 11" long and larger being 16' 5" long. "

Using something of these sizes would fit the hatchways of merchant shipping, leaving some space around them where other "sacked" cargo could fit as a "half-way house" and would benefit the load/unload cycle in the interim

They definitely had pallets (of unspecified size) on Safehold. There is a reference to the use of a pallet for freight in Siddar City on page 199 of HFaF.
Philip Stanley

It would be hard to visualize there not being shipping containers on Safehold. They wouldn't be standardized in size. There would be the type used by Nynian's shipping company which we see used to facilitate their escape from Zion. Then there would be the type designed to be lifted into the hold of a galleon by a dockside boom. For an example of the boom, visualize that cannon being hoisted onto Destiny prior to Ithyria in HFAF.

All the ingriedients are there and we know there's lots of shipping going on.

Don

n7axw wrote:It would be hard to visualize there not being shipping containers on Safehold. They wouldn't be standardized in size. There would be the type used by Nynian's shipping company which we see used to facilitate their escape from Zion. Then there would be the type designed to be lifted into the hold of a galleon by a dockside boom. For an example of the boom, visualize that cannon being hoisted onto Destiny prior to Ithyria in HFAF.

All the ingriedients are there and we know there's lots of shipping going on.

Don

Standardized boxes were a result of containerization which relied on forklifts and standardized pallets. Prior to containerization ships were stuffed with as much as they could physically hold by large crews of dock workers.
The advantage of containerization is two fold, it reduces number of waterside workers required and sealed boxes large enough to require a truck to shift, to limit pilferage (which was up to 20%). The current standard shipping container was defined by standard truck body sizes (less chassis) and contrary to popular belief there are four standard sizes - ten foot, twenty foot, thirty foot and forty foot. The twenty is the most common followed by the forty foot. The ten foot is rare and used most often by the military for munitions (the US military has their own non-standard standard (of course)) and other hazardous cargoes.
The thirty foot unit hasn't been used in forty years.