Ice yachts for BGV?

Howdy Everybody!

My 1947 Encyclopedia Americana, Forbes (March 7 2014), and the wiki article indicate 1890's Hudson ice yachts were quite fast and maneuverable, within 30 points of the wind, traveling over triangular courses to ensure being against the wind while demonstrating sustained speeds over 15 or 20 mile such courses records of 25 to 30 mph, lakes being preferred to rivers or bays.

While current tech 'ice scooters' have gone 85-90 mph, they are very small (toboggan size), the 1890's racers are more indicative of Safehold tech capability.

There were much bigger racers for the New York-Albany-New York races (overnight), one up to 96 tons apparently.

The Forbes article states the old light racers have crews of two and can carry 6-7 passengers, which makes me wonder how they might be adapted for the ICA and BGV in particular.

We've had a number of threads on bikes and RFC's hint of the ICA's radical approach to winter mobility, trying to guess all that that might mean.

While canals are rather narrow being only 50 yards wide, I can't help wondering if BGV doesn't have some wind assisted vehicles, ie sleds or 'ice yachts' for the scout snipers to penetrate far further each day than anyone in the AoG especially Wyrshym would believe possible, besides cargo sleds that ought to handle a considerable load according to USMA74's post on the "Kaitswyrth' Reinforcements" thread (page 2) 33" thick ice can support 70 ton class vehicles (M-1 Abrams) if kept 280' apart, so 30 ton dragon wagons pulled by pairs of snow lizards could manage on 23" of ice if 60 yards apart.

I envision sail powered sleds or racers in the 5 perhaps 10 ton range (so several could be carried on a dragon wagon) that could average a conservative 10 mph all day for 120-130 miles in daylight, plus at least half that at night just going slower, depending on vision and control reasons, for up to around 200 miles per day on the canals.

While the church has huge ice yachts for Lake Pei, only it could afford them, nor do we have any indication that the CoGA has ever considered using something smaller for the canals in winter.

Which could come back to bite them hard very soon now.

Your thoughts and insights are welcome.

L


Best to all

lyonheart wrote:
While canals are rather narrow being only 50 yards wide, I can't help wondering if BGV doesn't have some wind assisted vehicles, ie sleds or 'ice yachts' for the scout snipers to penetrate far further each day than anyone in the AoG especially Wyrshym would believe...

My very first thought is that those canals, at least the ones in the direction that BGV seems to be want to be heading, have no water in them.

Which is why I found it odd that he was worrying about when the canals froze over.

Further, I'll also point out that even on the northern canal that does have water, a canal fifty yards wide hardly seems to allow room for little things like, say, tacking...but I'm no sailor.

My 1947 Encyclopedia Americana, Forbes (March 7 2014), and the wiki article indicate 1890's Hudson ice yachts were quite fast and maneuverable, within 30 points of the wind, traveling over triangular courses to ensure being against the wind while demonstrating sustained speeds over 15 or 20 mile such courses records of 25 to 30 mph, lakes being preferred to rivers or bays.

As i wrote about in a thread(then with the focus on wheeled ones due to the presence of quality roads), ice yachts can be very capable vehicles.

Depending on what your focus is, you can get MUCH higher speeds than that.
124 knots is the fastest which has been reliably recorded.

This is thanks to how you can avoid the drag of having the wetted area and drag of a regular boat, while still being able to have lots of sail area. Essentially, a land or ice yacht can convert a far higher degree of the force applied as motion.

So, reaching speeds of 10 times the windspeed is not odd, and they can tack as close as 7 degrees from the eye of the wind.

(After taking a look at Hudson river ice yachts of today, i must say i was very surprised to notice one of them using a latin sail rig, i mean there´s just zero reason to use one instead of a gaff rig with a foresail, oh well, guess someone had a fetish or something )

While current tech 'ice scooters' have gone 85-90 mph, they are very small (toboggan size), the 1890's racers are more indicative of Safehold tech capability.

Yes and no. Safehold probably has both knowledge and technology needed to optimise, the 1890s had the technology as well, they had not reached far enough in knowledge to make it practical to optimise.

Also, cargo movers means large size, and that means it´s actually easier to make something that works well.

I envision sail powered sleds or racers in the 5 perhaps 10 ton range (so several could be carried on a dragon wagon) that could average a conservative 10 mph all day for 120-130 miles in daylight, plus at least half that at night just going slower, depending on vision and control reasons, for up to around 200 miles per day on the canals.

Going by night on rivers is generally a bad idea, if there´s a strong moonlight then it can be done, and if the crew are experts, as in REALLY good, starlight can be enough, but not recommended.

However, 12-16 hours at 15-30+ knots average should be quite possible depending on conditions, size and load.

And if there´s no wind, well an iceyacht can usually be pushed, thanks to the low friction.

Hi Tenshinai,

Thanks for the extra info, the wiki seems less informed than normal.

Towing the ice yacht's are what the snow lizards and caribou are for, I hope.

From your points, even 27 ton cargo sail powered sleds seem possible, so being able to support the High Hallow Morgan horses with high energy grain seems more possible than I'd considered.

I didn't make it clear but I figure most of the ice sail-sled travel will be in the canals, ie more like lakes than rivers, specifically the New Northland Canal to Five Forks; which as I pointed out were only around 50 yards wide, hard for tacking as AClone noted above, even if the canal embankments do break up any wind, as some claim, to mean there's always wind to work with.

Hopefully any night navigation would be by moonlight, not starlight, and think what a surprise to the semaphore crews when the scout snipers were able to capture a 100-200 miles worth of stations [10-20] in a single day or morning, while OWL creates mechanical failures among those passing the message along delaying it from Wyrshym until its too late.

I thought it would take about 3-4 days to travel the roughly ~570 miles of the New Northland Canal from Hyrdmyn, near where I figured BGV would move his flank attack, but from your data 2-3 days seems possible.

Have you considered updating the Wikipedia article?

L

Tenshinai wrote:

My 1947 Encyclopedia Americana, Forbes (March 7 2014), and the wiki article indicate 1890's Hudson ice yachts were quite fast and maneuverable, within 30 points of the wind, traveling over triangular courses to ensure being against the wind while demonstrating sustained speeds over 15 or 20 mile such courses records of 25 to 30 mph, lakes being preferred to rivers or bays.

As i wrote about in a thread(then with the focus on wheeled ones due to the presence of quality roads), ice yachts can be very capable vehicles.

Depending on what your focus is, you can get MUCH higher speeds than that.
124 knots is the fastest which has been reliably recorded.

This is thanks to how you can avoid the drag of having the wetted area and drag of a regular boat, while still being able to have lots of sail area. Essentially, a land or ice yacht can convert a far higher degree of the force applied as motion.

So, reaching speeds of 10 times the windspeed is not odd, and they can tack as close as 7 degrees from the eye of the wind.

(After taking a look at Hudson river ice yachts of today, i must say i was very surprised to notice one of them using a latin sail rig, i mean there´s just zero reason to use one instead of a gaff rig with a foresail, oh well, guess someone had a fetish or something )

While current tech 'ice scooters' have gone 85-90 mph, they are very small (toboggan size), the 1890's racers are more indicative of Safehold tech capability.

Yes and no. Safehold probably has both knowledge and technology needed to optimise, the 1890s had the technology as well, they had not reached far enough in knowledge to make it practical to optimise.

Also, cargo movers means large size, and that means it´s actually easier to make something that works well.

I envision sail powered sleds or racers in the 5 perhaps 10 ton range (so several could be carried on a dragon wagon) that could average a conservative 10 mph all day for 120-130 miles in daylight, plus at least half that at night just going slower, depending on vision and control reasons, for up to around 200 miles per day on the canals.

Going by night on rivers is generally a bad idea, if there´s a strong moonlight then it can be done, and if the crew are experts, as in REALLY good, starlight can be enough, but not recommended.

However, 12-16 hours at 15-30+ knots average should be quite possible depending on conditions, size and load.

And if there´s no wind, well an iceyacht can usually be pushed, thanks to the low friction.

I know very little about sailing. But it seems to me that a sailing vessel with Charisian technology should not have to tack unless the wind is coming from rather close to the direction you want to travel. As I recall, Charisian ships can sail pretty close to the wind. Most of the time, they should be able to just set their sails and go straight up the canal, unless the wind is coming at their faces.

I expect that the narrowness of the canal will pose a number of other hazards, especially if the wind changes abruptly. But I would think that lack of room to tack would not be a problem most of the time. Is my impression incorrect?

lyonheart wrote:Have you considered updating the Wikipedia article?

Not in this specific case, but as always, to do that you need to remember where there is a decent enough source for what you´re writing, and that´s so not my better side.

lyonheart wrote:I thought it would take about 3-4 days to travel the roughly ~570 miles of the New Northland Canal from Hyrdmyn, near where I figured BGV would move his flank attack, but from your data 2-3 days seems possible.

Always account for the unexpected. So your 3-4 days is probably the realistic time. But with a highly trained, smallsized force under good conditions with gear kept topnotch, yep, even 2 days should be quite possible.

lyonheart wrote:I didn't make it clear but I figure most of the ice sail-sled travel will be in the canals, ie more like lakes than rivers, specifically the New Northland Canal to Five Forks; which as I pointed out were only around 50 yards wide, hard for tacking as AClone noted above, even if the canal embankments do break up any wind, as some claim, to mean there's always wind to work with.

Ice yachts have been used on canals a lot through the times, definitely works just fine, even if they´re more narrow than that.

lyonheart wrote:From your points, even 27 ton cargo sail powered sleds seem possible

Certainly possible, but it may be better to aim for more, smaller ones as long as you´re aiming to use them on canals where space is limited.
Something 5-15 ton is my guesstimate. It also means accidents can be handled without heavy equipment.