Official Safehold Speculation Thread

Hi Don,

Overall, as usual I agree with your excellent points.

But I'm curious what ICA units you think require or will get time to train in the republic before speeding to the front as fast as possible, which is what all the textev says they're doing?

Granted, until they have steam tugs, there will be plenty of time to train on the canal barges in transit, if they can.

BGV's corps seems to have retrained on the M96 and the M97 4.5" mortar while marching from Allyntyn.

L

n7axw wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

Let's remember that the ICA is Chisholm's imperial baby.

IE, most of it was and will be concentrated, equipped and trained in Chisholm.

In particular, remember that when Tarot joined the empire there was absolutely no indication of anything blowing up in the republic, while the ICA infrastructure was all still on Chisholm, almost all the training at Maikelberg.

It made no sense then to have a separate training facility created on Tarot, and while it does now, conditions certainly have changed; so when the ICA has the cadre to spare [probably after the war- when it ends in a year or two], establishing such a forward training base makes a lot of sense, but not until then.

I don't think training bases in the republic are a good idea politically for a host of reasons, unless the implication is the RSA was training them; which unfortunately the public would easily see through.

Given their very disparate organizations, joint training centers won't work either until the RSA at least updates theirs, again unlikely until after the war ends.

Your concern over time spent under sail is admirable [;)] but proper training which can only be done now at Maikelberg, where all the training battalions are, overwhelms such concerns whatever the cost in time.

By the end of the war or soon after, I expect as I've posted, there will be steam transports capable of carrying a whole regiment at a time, possibly named the 'Brigadier' class which will render most of your concerns moot.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

The strongest argument for training everybody at
Mikaelberg is that it implements and reinforces the notion that your recruits are being integrated into the armed forces of the Empire rather than having their identity be that of separate national units.

The strongest argument against it is the issue of time. If the EOC was strapped for manpower, it would make a lot of sense to train them in the various provinces where they are recruited and send in teams of junior officers and noncoms to do the job. And I really don't think your argument against training in the Republic is cogent. I would suspect new ICA units are already training in the Republic to get the finishing touches before heading out to the front.

But there really isn't a issue with time at the moment. In fact, the problem hasn't been recruiting. It has been getting arms into the hands of the men who are being trained. So as a purely speculative matter, I'm inclined to believe that recruits will continue to be sent to Chisholm which we have textev as being the normal practice.

Don

Hi Lyonheart,

I'm wondering what political issues you think would cone up were the EOC to train in Siddarmark. Unless you are worried about TLs whom I understand are in rather short supply right now, it looks to me like those recruits would be warmly welcomed.

I also can see a real advantage to having "basic" in Chisholm and then have another month or so in Sddarmark conducted by noncoms rotated back from the front lines to bring the newbies up to speed on recent tactics and whatever else needs to be added to the institutional knowledge base of the ICA.

As to my previous comment, I would suspect that if the ICA is not fighting, it is always training to stay sharp.

Don

DDHvi wrote:I'm not thinking about putting them into the military. It can make sense for civilians to know how to defend also. There have been cases in the US of a licensed concealed carry gun stopping an attack on them or others. And it has been shown that even Marines are vulnerable if they are in a gun-free zone. Altho some of them used themselves to draw the attackers away from other vulnerable people. In another case, an attack in a gun free zone was stopped because a man illegally had a concealed carry weapon.

Let's be blunt: some of the most vicious attacks on women require the attacker to come close. While not totally effective (what is?) civilian women trained in unarmed combat would have an ace in the hole in such a situation.

I do recall some ladies have been in combat roles. However, if a culture is going to take defense seriously, this possibility should be considered, even if just as a backup.

For that matter, if a culture pushed in particular for UAC training for females, the males just might learn to be a little bit more polite

BTW, IIRC in the last few years, in real life, the percentage of ladies applying for, training for, and getting concealed carry licenses has gone up quite a bit.

In any case, anyone wanting to provide defense by any means should get solid training, which both Sharleyan and Iris did re guns.

That would make a lot of sense- and might just set up some sort of situation where a woman might prevent or reduce the lethality of an attack

An initial step could be training women for a Home Guard.

One thing you're overlooking is just how little what you're holding in your hand matters for tactical training - until people start putting holes in you, it's _all_ drills. doesn't matter if you're firing blanks from a muzzle loader or a breech loader at 3x the rate, or not shooting anything at all much of the time, the fire-and-movement drill is exactly the same: once you give away your position, you get your butt to the next one. if you execute, your sergeant will be happy with you. if you don't get it right, he won't be...

the biggest issue with doing it with muzzle-loaders is that once you get good at it, it's so much easier with a Mandrayn you risk getting cocky about how good you are. and then don't treat the guys with the real hole-makers with the respect they deserve: you're just as dead with a matchlock ball through your gut as you are with an M96 bullet there.

I have to agree that the ICA looked really polished and confident in their first engagements. But, remember, these were all retrained old-model army troops, many of them veterans. It would be very surprising if a significant portion of their training was spent as opfor - standing around in old-style formations seeing just what it's like to be on the receiving end of the new tactics. When they went over the line in the Gap, they had a pretty good idea of what they were doing to the other guys, and that would have been a great confidence booster. The next batch may never touch a pike or a matchlock, but they don't need to, because they _know_ all the new-fangled stuff works - in fact, it won't _be_ 'new-fangled' to them - and all they need is to learn how to do it themselves.

You're also exaggerating the complexity of training for the new support arms. Using them and coordinating them isn't a grunt's problem. All he needs is confidence that they work, which is best gained from a couple of fire-power demonstrations where you spend a day digging the best positions you can, then hike back to the firing line and watch the arty spend a half-hour or so shooting them to ratshit. Very instructive, that

Actually employing them is a command problem that comes down to understanding capabilities [you get that best by digging right beside your squaddies] and doctrine. Execution is a matter for the support and arty troops, who have their own training regime. The line commanders' job is to know what to, and what _not_ to, ask for, when. Learning that isn't really as time consuming as people are trying to suggest.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

The ICA evidently practiced with what the Mahndrayn could do with their flintlocks and had a few Mahndrayns to train with [textev conflicts], but adding mortars and indirect fire to the mix is a far bigger jump in complexity, NTM all the tactical changes including corps training, while substituting flintlocks for the Mahndrayns for most, that I struggle to see how they succeeded so well.

L

n7axw wrote:I have wondered about training times myself. Many of the Corisandians had some training with flintlock muskets. Back then Charisians were forming square with close order formations. The tactics of unit dispersal really didn't come until the Mandrayans arrived in Siddarmark with Hanth and BGV.

Along with becoming accustomed to the range of their rifles, learning the tactics appropriate for the Mandrayans would be what's actually new to them. What that means training wise, I am not sure. My impression is that DE's and BGV's people learned pretty much in the field since they first got the Mandrayans when they arrived in Siddar City. Up to that point the were using the same muzzle loading rifles they took to Corisande.

Don

Hi Louis R,

I would think that you would be right on this. I have never been in the military, but here is what I have been told.

Your basic training is primarily a matter of conditioning and learning to take orders and do what you are told without question as promptly as possible. Your entry level grunt doesn't need all of the whys and whereforetos... that is what noncoms and junior officers are for. Eventually, of course, assuming basic level grunt has two braincells to rub together, he starts to catch on to what is going on and the logic behind it. But the fundamentals to start with are conditioning and following orders. Then as time goes on a part of that training includes actually explaining what you are trying to accomplish.

But the key to the whole thing is drill, drill, drill over and over again until the required routines become so automatic that said grunt can do them in his sleep. Then, when the time to do it under the stress of battle happens, those conditioned reflexes take over and allow functionality under that stress rather than panic.

So the key to the small unit dispersal doctrines that the allies have adopted would be well trained and confident non-coms and junior officers that would inspire confidence in the grunts that their superiors know what they are doing. It would make good sense to send candidates for these positions to school long enough to thoroughly impart what they need to know to lead.

The best literary representation of this I've seen recently is "Freehold," by Michael Williamson

Don

n7axw wrote:
But the key to the whole thing is drill, drill, drill over and over again until the required routines become so automatic that said grunt can do them in his sleep. Then, when the time to do it under the stress of battle happens, those conditioned reflexes take over and allow functionality under that stress rather than panic.

Don

"The Power of Habits" by Charles Duhigg is well worth reading. He is a journalist who wrote the book based on existing research into habits and how they work.

One interesting point: It seems the memory of habits is stored elsewhere than conscious memory. The researchers located two people with brain damage such that they couldn't remember anything for more than a few minutes. However, what they had learned as a habit, they still could do, when the trigger occurred.

Expert snuggler wrote:An initial step could be training women for a Home Guard.

Sounds good to me.

Perhaps if unarmed combat training for women spreads enough, there would be a need to have some training for men in how to be very polite when courting.

Which, come to think of it is a good idea anyway. I like Merlin's advice to Cayleb that Sharleyan should be a full partner in the marriage (and rulership); since no two people have identical abilities, I've found we can cover for each other. When something technical is needed, BJ calls for me, and I'm very glad not to need to try cooking.

Expert snuggler wrote:An initial step could be training women for a Home Guard.

I proposed something different, with a nice catchy acronym.

Woman's
Imperial
Naval
Service

This like what they did during WWII with the WAVES WAC's SPARS and WASP's

Hi Don,

I strongly concur the ICA always seems to be to be training to stay sharp, though as USMA74 pointed out there are limits in all things.

Besides my previous lists opposing such quickie solutions, here are some more for this suggestion.

First, there are the security issues, the Go4/AoG etc still doesn't know what ICA doctrine is or its capabilities.

Keeping it that way, that is the enemy in ignorance, is the simplest and straightest rod to victory; so all the major training for this war should be done securely far away, ie kept in Maikelberg for now.

Secondly, its going to take a lot longer than just another month or so to finish training in the republic after basic.

How long do you think ICA infantry basic should be?

Then there's advanced training, NTM getting up to company, battalion, regimental, division and corps standards which will take well over a year.

Thirdly, training interrupted apparently halfway thru by a two month sea voyage is anything but well trained, the hallmark of the ICA.

Fourthly, just what ICA training needs to be updated?

So far ICA doctrine and its well trained troops has more than mastered every mission or task without any changes required, and any new weapon's training has been done in transit on the barges.

Fifthly, it isn't necessary in this war.

Besides the fact there's too little time left in this war, setting any ICA training bases up in the RoS takes up precious time and resources, ie the trainers who're among the best you've got, when they can't be spared right now, as you've argued in one of your recent posts that the number of ICA troops is less important than seeing to it they all receive the latest weapons.

But my primary objections are political with religious aspects and have to do with avoiding the appearance of using the republic in anyway that appears subordinate, which would be understandably attacked from so many angles and groups.

Clyntahn claimed through the SoS and the Go4 since that the Lord Protector had sold the republic to Charis; this would appear to confirm that, even if it seems such a very small step.

Besides the image or suggestion that the RoS is in anyway subordinate or second rate to the empire would irritate if not infuriate all too many republic patriots during this critical yet tender time, when the RoS and the EoC can so easily avoid such concerns in the first place by never bringing it up.

I think the KISS principle applies here, or as Mike Henke would say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I'm all for some few post war joint training centers, when they can be properly planned and the RSA has updated its organization and training to a par with the ICA so they are truly joint [which will take a while], not just in the republic, but especially since the republic can make winters in Chisholm seem warm, they'd have bragging rights etc.

L

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart,

I'm wondering what political issues you think would cone up were the EOC to train in Siddarmark. Unless you are worried about TLs whom I understand are in rather short supply right now, it looks to me like those recruits would be warmly welcomed.

I also can see a real advantage to having "basic" in Chisholm and then have another month or so in Sddarmark conducted by noncoms rotated back from the front lines to bring the newbies up to speed on recent tactics and whatever else needs to be added to the institutional knowledge base of the ICA.

As to my previous comment, I would suspect that if the ICA is not fighting, it is always training to stay sharp.

Don