The Temple—How might it be taken?

evilauthor wrote:

C. O. Thompson wrote:Merlin believes that he would set off the self defense systems and he is too valuable to the efforts to risk lightly.

Sure, but there's a HUGE difference between "set off self defense systems" and "trick the OBS into nailing the Temple because it detected an artificial power source there". I'm objecting that latter would actually happen because any competent defense designer would build a more measured response to detecting potentially hostile power sources in or around the Temple.

The more I think on this, the more I am convinced that the OBS has to be neutralized before the Temple is tackled.

C. O. Thompson wrote:
The more I think on this, the more I am convinced that the OBS has to be neutralized before the Temple is tackled.

You might be right. But it is a chicken and egg discussion. On the one hand if you can shut down the OBS, you are probably denying whatever is under the Temple the tools it needs to act effectively. On the other hand if you can gain access to the computer, you might be able to turn the OBS off.

There are risks of waking up whatever is under the Temple either way.

Don

n7axw wrote:

C. O. Thompson wrote:
The more I think on this, the more I am convinced that the OBS has to be neutralized before the Temple is tackled.

You might be right. But it is a chicken and egg discussion. On the one hand if you can shut down the OBS, you are probably denying whatever is under the Temple the tools it needs to act effectively. On the other hand if you can gain access to the computer, you might be able to turn the OBS off.

There are risks of waking up whatever is under the Temple either way.

Don

OK Don,
The method to neutralize the OBS would have to be "under the threshold" that is perceived as a threat but the way the 'servitors' worked with Merlin makes me think that this might be a task that they could be programmed to do. Send a dozen or so in disguised as asteroids even if it takes them weeks to get in position. Gain access and pull the plug so that Merlin can get in safely.

Chicken or egg?? Gather up the eggs and the chickens cannot throw them at you.
I grew up on farms and know that egg fights are nasty things. A lot of fun when you are a teen (as long as you don't get hit too badly) OOOOhhhh the memories that just came to me

If the device under the temple cannot call in artillery, even if alarms go off in the temple the allies have a better than even chance they can control the system that Schuyler left behind.
Wake him up under restraints or if it is his PICA, you could pull his brain out and then wake it up.

The repercussions of the Jihad and the peasant revolt will be enough for Calyb to overcome... the sooner they can get past Clinton and the "thing under the temple" the sooner they can gear up to meet the Gababa

[/quote]OK Don,
The method to neutralize the OBS would have to be "under the threshold" that is perceived as a threat but the way the 'servitors' worked with Merlin makes me think that this might be a task that they could be programmed to do. Send a dozen or so in disguised as asteroids even if it takes them weeks to get in position. Gain access and pull the plug so that Merlin can get in safely.

Chicken or egg?? Gather up the eggs and the chickens cannot throw them at you.
I grew up on farms and know that egg fights are nasty things. A lot of fun when you are a teen (as long as you don't get hit too badly) OOOOhhhh the memories that just came to me

If the device under the temple cannot call in artillery, even if alarms go off in the temple the allies have a better than even chance they can control the system that Schuyler left behind.
Wake him up under restraints or if it is his PICA, you could pull his brain out and then wake it up.

The repercussions of the Jihad and the peasant revolt will be enough for Calyb to overcome... the sooner they can get past Clinton and the "thing under the temple" the sooner they can gear up to meet the Gababa[/quote]

Hey C O, when I was participating in egg fights, we made sure they were rotten eggs too. That was nasty!

A couple of thoughts here. This has been pretty thoroughly discussed so not sure how much I'll add, but IAC: I don't believe the EoC will intentionally harm citizens or non-combatants. Nor do I think they will steal from them. We have already seen where Charis pays locals for whatever it takes. The way to change hearts and minds isn't to cause them pain and misery. I believe they want to convert the people to their way of thinking, not conquer them and force them to their way. As far as the temple goes, I don't believe there is any way that they will work to destroy the temple. It would be way too valuable an asset to just blow up. Now I suppose it could still get destroyed accidentally if they set off some trigger, but I doubt that they would plan to destroy it. We need to remember that the primary goal is to get back to a technological level so that we can fight the Gbaba and win. The temple library could have enormous resources that people could/would recognize as having come from the Archangels themselves with no "Demonic" aid, which would help them with their faith. Granted, it is possible (or perhaps even likely) that the library has been scrubbed of any technological type info, but I'd hate to blow it up first without knowing that.

Another thought I've had is this: does the temple have to be taken now? Why not conquer Zion, replace Clyntahn and the others, and just wait for the return. The world could progress significantly in the intervening years. Just a thought.

Egg fights? Yuck... I don't think my momma would have wanted me associating with either of you guys!!!

n7axw wrote:Egg fights? Yuck... I don't think my momma would have wanted me associating with either of you guys!!!

I was definitely the one your mother warned you not to hang around with but I learned to be ethical and well mannered in-spite of the fact that I had to grow up without your civilizing influence... and I have not thrown an egg at any one since 1964 when I started to learn how to manipulate and get into the heads of others .

TBird 50

Hey C O, when I was participating in egg fights, we made sure they were rotten eggs too. That was nasty!


Never had to deal with rotten eggs, I could get fresh by the gross <not that kind of gross as rotten eggs but the twelve dozen kind>

A couple of thoughts here. This has been pretty thoroughly discussed so not sure how much I'll add, but IAC: I don't believe the EoC will intentionally harm citizens or non-combatants. Nor do I think they will steal from them. We have already seen where Charis pays locals for whatever it takes. The way to change hearts and minds isn't to cause them pain and misery. I believe they want to convert the people to their way of thinking, not conquer them and force them to their way. As far as the temple goes, I don't believe there is any way that they will work to destroy the temple. It would be way too valuable an asset to just blow up. Now I suppose it could still get destroyed accidentally if they set off some trigger, but I doubt that they would plan to destroy it. We need to remember that the primary goal is to get back to a technological level so that we can fight the Gbaba and win. The temple library could have enormous resources that people could/would recognize as having come from the Archangels themselves with no "Demonic" aid, which would help them with their faith. Granted, it is possible (or perhaps even likely) that the library has been scrubbed of any technological type info, but I'd hate to blow it up first without knowing that.

Another thought I've had is this: does the temple have to be taken now? Why not conquer Zion, replace Clyntahn and the others, and just wait for the return. The world could progress significantly in the intervening years. Just a thought.

I advocate suborning the systems rather than destroying them and I believe there would be more opportunity to do this if the orbital system is shut off first. I agree with you that the library would be worth keeping intact and would not be surprised if David Weber has all kinds of goodies that Merlin can use to get humanity ready to face the Gbaba as the original mission profile required

C. O. Thompson wrote:TBird 50

Hey C O, when I was participating in egg fights, we made sure they were rotten eggs too. That was nasty!


Never had to deal with rotten eggs, I could get fresh by the gross <not that kind of gross as rotten eggs but the twelve dozen kind>

A couple of thoughts here. This has been pretty thoroughly discussed so not sure how much I'll add, but IAC: I don't believe the EoC will intentionally harm citizens or non-combatants. Nor do I think they will steal from them. We have already seen where Charis pays locals for whatever it takes. The way to change hearts and minds isn't to cause them pain and misery. I believe they want to convert the people to their way of thinking, not conquer them and force them to their way. As far as the temple goes, I don't believe there is any way that they will work to destroy the temple. It would be way too valuable an asset to just blow up. Now I suppose it could still get destroyed accidentally if they set off some trigger, but I doubt that they would plan to destroy it. We need to remember that the primary goal is to get back to a technological level so that we can fight the Gbaba and win. The temple library could have enormous resources that people could/would recognize as having come from the Archangels themselves with no "Demonic" aid, which would help them with their faith. Granted, it is possible (or perhaps even likely) that the library has been scrubbed of any technological type info, but I'd hate to blow it up first without knowing that.

Another thought I've had is this: does the temple have to be taken now? Why not conquer Zion, replace Clyntahn and the others, and just wait for the return. The world could progress significantly in the intervening years. Just a thought.

I advocate suborning the systems rather than destroying them and I believe there would be more opportunity to do this if the orbital system is shut off first. I agree with you that the library would be worth keeping intact and would not be surprised if David Weber has all kinds of goodies that Merlin can use to get humanity ready to face the Gbaba as the original mission profile required

Waiting for the return and just hoping for the best strikes me as an incredibly dangerous idea. Their previous idea (whether they were part of the planning for it or just went along with it after the affect) was to commit mass murder against those who disagreed with them. After that, they fought a war and killed off everyone who still disagreed with them. This is on top of a thoroughly scarred personality developed during the decades where humanity was under a death sentence. And then, to top it all off, they were worshipped like living gods for well over a century on Safehold.

The so-called Archangels were never sane to begin with. Is anyone really willing to bet the farm that the returning personality is going to wake up and be in an accepting mood? Not only will they still have the OBS unless Merlin does something, they're going to get to walk out of the Temple itself and proclaim that they're a returning angel. They'll look like angels, act like angels, and will be treated like angels. Anyone who disagrees with them, since they're so obviously angels, will be demons. QED. It doesn't matter how much progress is made in the intervening time; once an angel comes back and decries it as demonic, Safeholdians are going to reject it with blinding speed.

For someone like that, is smashing the EoC from orbit really all that big of a deal? Knock out Charis, outlaw all those pesky innovations, and things will all go back to normal. All in a day's work for an angel of God.

For what it's worth, I agree that taking the Temple outright rather than destroying it makes the most sense. Not only does it give you access to everything underneath, but it also serves to legitimize the EoC before the reveal. After all, God wouldn't allow the Temple to fall unless he approves of those it falls to.

Bluestrike2 wrote:

C. O. Thompson wrote:TBird 50

Hey C O, when I was participating in egg fights, we made sure they were rotten eggs too. That was nasty!


Never had to deal with rotten eggs, I could get fresh by the gross <not that kind of gross as rotten eggs but the twelve dozen kind>

A couple of thoughts here. This has been pretty thoroughly discussed so not sure how much I'll add, but IAC: I don't believe the EoC will intentionally harm citizens or non-combatants. Nor do I think they will steal from them. We have already seen where Charis pays locals for whatever it takes. The way to change hearts and minds isn't to cause them pain and misery. I believe they want to convert the people to their way of thinking, not conquer them and force them to their way. As far as the temple goes, I don't believe there is any way that they will work to destroy the temple. It would be way too valuable an asset to just blow up. Now I suppose it could still get destroyed accidentally if they set off some trigger, but I doubt that they would plan to destroy it. We need to remember that the primary goal is to get back to a technological level so that we can fight the Gbaba and win. The temple library could have enormous resources that people could/would recognize as having come from the Archangels themselves with no "Demonic" aid, which would help them with their faith. Granted, it is possible (or perhaps even likely) that the library has been scrubbed of any technological type info, but I'd hate to blow it up first without knowing that.

Another thought I've had is this: does the temple have to be taken now? Why not conquer Zion, replace Clyntahn and the others, and just wait for the return. The world could progress significantly in the intervening years. Just a thought.

I advocate suborning the systems rather than destroying them and I believe there would be more opportunity to do this if the orbital system is shut off first. I agree with you that the library would be worth keeping intact and would not be surprised if David Weber has all kinds of goodies that Merlin can use to get humanity ready to face the Gbaba as the original mission profile required

Waiting for the return and just hoping for the best strikes me as an incredibly dangerous idea. Their previous idea (whether they were part of the planning for it or just went along with it after the affect) was to commit mass murder against those who disagreed with them. After that, they fought a war and killed off everyone who still disagreed with them. This is on top of a thoroughly scarred personality developed during the decades where humanity was under a death sentence. And then, to top it all off, they were worshipped like living gods for well over a century on Safehold.

The so-called Archangels were never sane to begin with. Is anyone really willing to bet the farm that the returning personality is going to wake up and be in an accepting mood? Not only will they still have the OBS unless Merlin does something, they're going to get to walk out of the Temple itself and proclaim that they're a returning angel. They'll look like angels, act like angels, and will be treated like angels. Anyone who disagrees with them, since they're so obviously angels, will be demons. QED. It doesn't matter how much progress is made in the intervening time; once an angel comes back and decries it as demonic, Safeholdians are going to reject it with blinding speed.

For someone like that, is smashing the EoC from orbit really all that big of a deal? Knock out Charis, outlaw all those pesky innovations, and things will all go back to normal. All in a day's work for an angel of God.

For what it's worth, I agree that taking the Temple outright rather than destroying it makes the most sense. Not only does it give you access to everything underneath, but it also serves to legitimize the EoC before the reveal. After all, God wouldn't allow the Temple to fall unless he approves of those it falls to.

Nice post Blueskrike. I couldn't agree more empatically. When whatever it is wakes up, you want to be able to control what it does.

Don

Don & Bluestrike2;

You guys are more than likely correct. However, we're now in the year 897 so there is 103 years until the supposed return. Think of the advancements that happened from say 1865 after the civil war to 1968. If the same amount of technical advancements could happen on earth, think of how far it could advance on Safehold with Merlin et al guiding the advancements. And once all of those technical advancements have happened, I can't believe anyone could stuff the genie back in the bottle - archangel or not. Can you imagine listening to anyone who said we had to give up automobiles and go back to horse & buggy? Plus EoC would be in complete control of Zion and Safehold for that matter by then so they would/should be able to be ready and waiting for whatever or whomever returns. Also after 100 years of (hopefully anyway) beneficent ruling by the EoC, no one but fanatics would believe they are or were influenced by demons. The populace would also be educated to the massive fraud perpetrated on them by then, so I don't necessarily think it would be that big of a risk to wait. I guess time & DW will tell.