(SPOILERS) The reasons for the Archangel's return

Keith_w wrote:
Thanks. it is the word "last" that is important there.

It means, that there was more than one Rakurai strikers during the War. And frankly, it's logical - why should the Archangels fraction hesitate to use their most powerfull artillery?

Keith_w wrote:..snip..
Why do you consider it to be so important that the object not have increased it's velocity relative to the planet it is departing using the gravity effect? It is the speed relative to the remainder of the stellar neighborhood that is important. In any case, I still have not seen a case for you that an object could not depart orbit around a planet using the gravity effect.

Because if that would be the case a ball could also roll up a slope.

That can't happen unless you increase the speed of the object so it reaches escape velocity otherwise the object is bound to the planet by it's gravity well.

Joat42 wrote:

Keith_w wrote:..snip..
Why do you consider it to be so important that the object not have increased it's velocity relative to the planet it is departing using the gravity effect? It is the speed relative to the remainder of the stellar neighborhood that is important. In any case, I still have not seen a case for you that an object could not depart orbit around a planet using the gravity effect.

Because if that would be the case a ball could also roll up a slope.

That can't happen unless you increase the speed of the object so it reaches escape velocity otherwise the object is bound to the planet by it's gravity well.

So exactly why do you think that there would be an issue with launching KEVs from orbit at a speed which would allow the KEV to depart orbit in a way that would not cause an impact with the Safehold? We don't actually know much about TF technology except that it wasn't quite up to Ghana's. We do know that the had gravity compensators for up to 400 Gs, which means that the could accelerate ships carrying humans to that speed, we don't know what speed that they could reach if they didn't have to compensate for gravity, not do we know the size of propulsive device necessary to achieve that speed. We know they had tractor beams and presumably repulsion ones as well. There is so much we don't know about TF tech that it is impossible to say that you can't do this or you can do that. Possibly based on our present level of human knowledge you can't do that (although I think that we could very easily, and I think we do when ever we send something off to a different object in our solar system), but we ain't talking about what WE can or can't do, we are talking about what the TF could or couldn't do.

Keith_w wrote:..snip..
Why do you consider it to be so important that the object not have increased it's velocity relative to the planet it is departing using the gravity effect? It is the speed relative to the remainder of the stellar neighborhood that is important. In any case, I still have not seen a case for you that an object could not depart orbit around a planet using the gravity effect.

Joat42 wrote:Because if that would be the case a ball could also roll up a slope.

That can't happen unless you increase the speed of the object so it reaches escape velocity otherwise the object is bound to the planet by it's gravity well.

Keith_w wrote:So exactly why do you think that there would be an issue with launching KEVs from orbit at a speed which would allow the KEV to depart orbit in a way that would not cause an impact with the Safehold?

First you say that an object can increase it's speed using the "gravity effect" to reach escape velocity and leave the orbit. Then you say that it can be launched at enough speed to leave orbit?!?

One of the stated methods doesn't work unless you change the laws of physics.

Joat42 wrote:

Keith_w wrote:..snip..
Why do you consider it to be so important that the object not have increased it's velocity relative to the planet it is departing using the gravity effect? It is the speed relative to the remainder of the stellar neighborhood that is important. In any case, I still have not seen a case for you that an object could not depart orbit around a planet using the gravity effect.

Joat42 wrote:Because if that would be the case a ball could also roll up a slope.

That can't happen unless you increase the speed of the object so it reaches escape velocity otherwise the object is bound to the planet by it's gravity well.

Keith_w wrote:So exactly why do you think that there would be an issue with launching KEVs from orbit at a speed which would allow the KEV to depart orbit in a way that would not cause an impact with the Safehold?

First you say that an object can increase it's speed using the "gravity effect" to reach escape velocity and leave the orbit. Then you say that it can be launched at enough speed to leave orbit?!?

One of the stated methods doesn't work unless you change the laws of physics.

Launch has many meanings, from Miriam-Webster:
Launch:
1a : to throw forward : hurl
b : to release, catapult, or send off (a self-propelled object) <launch a rocket>

2a : to set (a boat or ship) afloat
b : to give (a person) a start <launched her on a new career>
c (1) : to put into operation or set in motion : initiate, introduce (2) : to get off to a good start

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/launch
In this case, 1a, 1b, and 2c1 and 2 are appropriate definitions.

Again from the same site: Definition of ORBIT
1a : a path described by one body in its revolution about another (as by the earth about the sun or by an electron about an atomic nucleus); also : one complete revolution of a body describing such a path

b : a circular path

2: a range or sphere of activity or influence <within the president's orbit>

We know that the OBS is in ORBIT (see definition above) around Safehold. We know that in order to be effective as a bombardment system the KEW has to be sent away from the OBS (ie hurled, thrown or otherwise LAUNCHED, see definition above). We know that when used as an OBS the user desired that the KEW firmly impact Safehold in a very specific area (Alexandria, Khody's tomb and abbey, other places). This implies that there is a method of guidance attached to the KEW and also a method of communicating with the KEW in order to provide that guidance.

In this case there is no reason to suppose that the guidance and communication system could not be used to direct the KEW into a gravity-effect pass of said planet Safehold.

Dilandu wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
Thanks. it is the word "last" that is important there.

It means, that there was more than one Rakurai strikers during the War. And frankly, it's logical - why should the Archangels fraction hesitate to use their most powerfull artillery?

Indeed, it does mean that. The reason I had forgotten that the Rakuri was used in the war against the fallen was there were only 2 events described, Alexandria and Khodi's grave and abbey. When KEVs are used, the tend to tear up the landscape a bit, for example, see the description of Armageddon reef, or closer to home, see the moon, the Sudbury basin, and the Tunguska event in Russia among many others. Since there have been no descriptions of torn up landscape as might be effect by such an event, nor have there been any local citizens saying such things as "We don't go there, that's where God Rakuried the fallen, it's a damned, evil place", I didn't think about it that much.

Keith_w wrote:..snip..
In this case there is no reason to suppose that the guidance and communication system could not be used to direct the KEW into a gravity-effect pass of said planet Safehold.

When the KEW has left the launcher, it cannot gain any speed from the planet unless it has thrusters (or any other propulsion), regardless of any attempt to use the planets gravity.

If if it did it would violate the law of conservation of energy.

Keith_w wrote:Why do you consider it to be so important that the object not have increased it's velocity relative to the planet it is departing using the gravity effect? It is the speed relative to the remainder of the stellar neighbourhood that is important. In any case, I still have not seen a case for you that an object could not depart orbit around a planet using the gravity effect.

Because you were talking about getting the weapon out of orbit around Safehold. To do that, you need to reach escape velocity with respect to the planet. The velocity of the weapon with respect to the star is not the important value--it is the velocity of the weapon with respect to the planet. Without sufficient velocity, the weapon cannot escape from the planet. As I said--if you want to get the weapon out of orbit, you need some other way of increasing its velocity relative to the planet, because gravity assist will not do it.

PLEASE STOP THE SPOILERS!!!

Keith_w wrote:So exactly why do you think that there would be an issue with launching KEVs from orbit at a speed which would allow the KEV to depart orbit in a way that would not cause an impact with the Safehold? We don't actually know much about TF technology except that it wasn't quite up to Ghana's. We do know that the had gravity compensators for up to 400 Gs, which means that the could accelerate ships carrying humans to that speed, we don't know what speed that they could reach if they didn't have to compensate for gravity, not do we know the size of propulsive device necessary to achieve that speed. We know they had tractor beams and presumably repulsion ones as well. There is so much we don't know about TF tech that it is impossible to say that you can't do this or you can do that. Possibly based on our present level of human knowledge you can't do that (although I think that we could very easily, and I think we do when ever we send something off to a different object in our solar system), but we ain't talking about what WE can or can't do, we are talking about what the TF could or couldn't do.

But we were talking about using gravity assist. If you are using some other method to get escape velocity, you are not using gravity assist. Just as I told you several times already--if you want to get the weapon to escape velocity, you need to use some method other than gravity assist.

As for why I (I can't speak for Joat) don't think the weapon has the means to do get to escape velocity, I answered that all the way back in my first response to you. This style of system would not normally have the means to launch the weapon that fast. It's intended to drop the weapon onto the planet, using the gravity to accelerate it. Such systems don't normally need to boost the weapons as much as you are suggesting. You responded then by suggesting they could just use the planet's own gravity to boost it out. I have shown that gravity assist can't boost the weapon into interplanetary space, and I doubt that the weapon or launcher can do it either.