Hot Air and the start of Flight

Hi MacGuiness,

You've commented before that the church had come up with a better weapon, implying that the St Klyman is better than the Mandrayan. The textev for that assertion is there.

But I don't think the comparison holds for the Mandrayans being converted over to handle the brass shells or the M96s.

Just to compare impressions, do you have a comment to this?

Don

It isn't. The St Klyman is an inferior rifle to the improved Mandrayan. The St Klyman is still cheaper, but it isn't a better rifle. It doesn't even have percussion caps, yet. Clyntahn hasn't ruled on that yet. However the fact that the St Klyman is inferior to the M96 is irrelevant to the fact that it is ten times better than a muzzle loader.

Highjohn wrote:It isn't. The St Klyman is an inferior rifle to the improved Mandrayan. The St Klyman is still cheaper, but it isn't a better rifle. It doesn't even have percussion caps, yet. Clyntahn hasn't ruled on that yet. However the fact that the St Klyman is inferior to the M96 is irrelevant to the fact that it is ten times better than a muzzle loader.

I think that the perussion caps have been approved. I'm too lazy right now to hunt the reference, but that is what I am rememh

Highjohn wrote:It isn't. The St Klyman is an inferior rifle to the improved Mandrayan. The St Klyman is still cheaper, but it isn't a better rifle. It doesn't even have percussion caps, yet. Clyntahn hasn't ruled on that yet. However the fact that the St Klyman is inferior to the M96 is irrelevant to the fact that it is ten times better than a muzzle loader.

I think that the perussion caps have been approved. I'm too lazy right now to hunt the reference, but that is what I am remembering.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi MacGuiness,

You've commented before that the church had come up with a better weapon, implying that the St Klyman is better than the Mandrayan. The textev for that assertion is there.

But I don't think the comparison holds for the Mandrayans being converted over to handle the brass shells or the M96s.

Just to compare impressions, do you have a comment to this?

Don

The testev is that the St Klyman is a better weapon than the first model Mandrayan (first breech loaders). It is not superior to the upgraded trapdoor Mandrayans or the new M96 model.

My memory as well.

As for the St. Klymans, they are a good "lo tech" solution. Think Kalashnikov. And yes, they are indicative of the "progress" Merlin needs to ignite to succeed.

n7axw wrote:

Highjohn wrote:It isn't. The St Klyman is an inferior rifle to the improved Mandrayan. The St Klyman is still cheaper, but it isn't a better rifle. It doesn't even have percussion caps, yet. Clyntahn hasn't ruled on that yet. However the fact that the St Klyman is inferior to the M96 is irrelevant to the fact that it is ten times better than a muzzle loader.

I think that the perussion caps have been approved. I'm too lazy right now to hunt the reference, but that is what I am remembering.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi MacGuiness,

You've commented before that the church had come up with a better weapon, implying that the St Klyman is better than the Mandrayan. The textev for that assertion is there.

But I don't think the comparison holds for the Mandrayans being converted over to handle the brass shells or the M96s.

Just to compare impressions, do you have a comment to this?

Don

Everyone made this easy for me and explained that percussion caps have been approved, and how the St. Kylmahn is better than a standard Mahndrayn, but it certainly won't be better than anything that shoots brass shells.

Most of the Mahndrayns will probably be handed over to Siddarmark without being converted, which at the very least will allow the RSA to reload lying down next to their ICA allies, plus it will speed up their rate of fire two to three times.

At some point Charis was bound to accelerate so far ahead on the technology curve that the CoGA couldn't mimic their new inventions, and this is the first time that's happened. So will Clyntahn claim that high quality steel and bullets in brass casings violate the Proscriptions? He'd be laughed out of Zion! (Whenever people are sure no inquisitors are lurking nearby!)

Wait until smokeless powder comes along...

Give the CoGA five years or so to work on their steel processing since they stole some plans on the latest EoC methods of producing it, and they might be able to make a barrel for an M96. During that time they might be able to come up with standard measurements for interchangeable parts and make them mandatory, and they'll be able to hand-make brass bullets. It won't matter since the war will be over by then, and the ICA will be using machine guns!

I'd be surprised if the shooting isn't over in the next two years. Once Siddarmark is reclaimed and the Borders States are clamoring to surrender, the Temple Lands are going to be feeling rather lonely. Of course the ICN can sail into Temple Bay and start unloading the troops anytime - they could have done it years ago after AMF!

The race is over. Mother church just doesn't know it yet, and a whole lot of people are gonna die before she figures it out...

McGuiness wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi MacGuiness,

You've commented before that the church had come up with a better weapon, implying that the St Klyman is better than the Mandrayan. The textev for that assertion is there.

But I don't think the comparison holds for the Mandrayans being converted over to handle the brass shells or the M96s.

Just to compare impressions, do you have a comment to this?

Don

Everyone made this easy for me and explained that percussion caps have been approved, and how the St. Kylmahn is better than a standard Mahndrayn, but it certainly won't be better than anything that shoots brass shells.

Most of the Mahndrayns will probably be handed over to Siddarmark without being converted, which at the very least will allow the RSA to reload lying down next to their ICA allies, plus it will speed up their rate of fire two to three times.

At some point Charis was bound to accelerate so far ahead on the technology curve that the CoGA couldn't mimic their new inventions, and this is the first time that's happened. So will Clyntahn claim that high quality steel and bullets in brass casings violate the Proscriptions? He'd be laughed out of Zion! (Whenever people are sure no inquisitors are lurking nearby!)

Wait until smokeless powder comes along...

Give the CoGA five years or so to work on their steel processing since they stole some plans on the latest EoC methods of producing it, and they might be able to make a barrel for an M96. During that time they might be able to come up with standard measurements for interchangeable parts and make them mandatory, and they'll be able to hand-make brass bullets. It won't matter since the war will be over by then, and the ICA will be using machine guns!

I'd be surprised if the shooting isn't over in the next two years. Once Siddarmark is reclaimed and the Borders States are clamoring to surrender, the Temple Lands are going to be feeling rather lonely. Of course the ICN can sail into Temple Bay and start unloading the troops anytime - they could have done it years ago after AMF!

The race is over. Mother church just doesn't know it yet, and a whole lot of people are gonna die before she figures it out...

Agreed. Great post, MacGuiness. You've summarised things nicely.

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi MacGuiness,

You've commented before that the church had come up with a better weapon, implying that the St Klyman is better than the Mandrayan. The textev for that assertion is there.

But I don't think the comparison holds for the Mandrayans being converted over to handle the brass shells or the M96s.

Just to compare impressions, do you have a comment to this?

Don

The testev is that the St Klyman is a better weapon than the first model Mandrayan (first breech loaders). It is not superior to the upgraded trapdoor Mandrayans or the new M96 model.

I am going to include two references on the St.Kylmahn rifle, and then another on the Mahndrayn. You can look up the references if you disagree with me.

The St.Kylmahn rifle was never as good as the original Mahndrayn.

To load the Mahndrayn, the breach block is moved back far enough that the rigid cartridge can be shoved into the breach, the breach block is closed, a percussion cap is inserted.

To load the St.Kylmahn you have crank down the breach plug, shove the patch and bullet into the barrel and then shove them forward to make room for the powder. The breach plug is then cranked back up, and either a "Priming Cap" is inserted, or some powder must be added to the firing pan.

The Mahndrayn is faster to load. The Mahndrayn is more accurate because of standardization of bore and bullet. The Mahndrayn is probably lighter because of it's steel construction.

The only advantage the St.Kylmahn has is that it is cheap.

Charis could have created "Build a Ferguson" kits when they first found out about the St.Kylmahn. It wouldn't have replaced any of the Mahndrayns, but it could have upgraded a significant portion of the Siddermark Army's equipment.

Mahndrayn:
How Firm a Foundation (Safehold) (pp. 102-104).

St.Kylmahn:
Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (pp. 237-238)
Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (p. 322)

Hi JRM,

I went back and read your references, not because I disagreed with you, but because I hoped it would demonstrate the point more firmly than it actually did. Further Merlin regards the St Klyman a superior design. In fairness we have to acknowledge the textev for that, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the time to find it.

I would like to see a comparision between rate of fire for the two guns. My impression is that they are about the same. I ve been able to come up with figures of between 12 and 15 shots per minute for the St Klyman, not I haven't been able to come up with anything for the Mahndrayan yet. I'm suspecting they are about the same.

Right now here are a list of advantages as I see them...both ways.

For the St Klyman:
Simplicity of design. This is something that the church can make with their relatively crude manufacturing ability. It also has fewer parts for a soldier to break. I think this is what Merlin is talking about when he calls the St Klyman a superior design.
It can be designed for use with priming caps which the church has now approved. Uses cartridges rather than inserting bullet and powder separately.
Field conversion kits can be sent out to convert muzzle loaders.

For the Mahndrayan:
All steel construction. Especially having steel barrels will mean that the Mahndrayan will wear much better than the St Klyman with its iron barrels..
Superior manufacturing technique including better machine work means that ammo will fit tighter in the barrel and should be more accurate at longer range.
Interchangeable parts mean that if something breaks in the field, an armorer can quickly change out the needed part. That more than compensates for its comparative complexity as compared to the St Klyman.
Also takes primer caps. Uses cartridge rather than having to insert powder and bullet separately.
All steal construction means that unlike the St Klyman, the bore pressure it can withstand is much greater and will be able to use the brown powder, though not the smokeless powder that the M96s are designed to handle.

Overall, the Mahndrayan is superior to the St Klyman in everything but simplicity of design. On the other hand the St Klymans are an effective answer to the Mahndrayan on the battlefield and the church can produce them in large enough numbers to be useful, being able to make one St Klyman in the same time it would take to make two muzzleloaders.

This summarises my own impression of the matter...for what it's worth.

Don