Safehold post-Jihad

Duchairn has had his faith renewed, dedicated to helping his fellow man and the church. He would be eager to set both it and him on the path of redemption, so why not suggest the church of charis to work in partnership with Zion to abolish serfdom and slavery.
That would force them into conflict with harchong and likely desnair. At the very least the temple lands can abolish those institutions, and likely the border states could be pressured by the church and republic. Dohlar could potentially be convincible.
The church has armed forces, so better keep them occupied, by making harchong seem threatening. How would they react if the temple lands refused to return escaped slave and serfs.

I bet Merlin has been able to secretly record tons of data on illegal funds corrupt church men have hidden away. That could be now passed to the temple, who will then put it to good use, weeding out the corrupt and funding more charitable works.
Harchong is deeply corrupt correct. They always bribed the right church guy to play the system. If their true records were given to the temple now, they would be collected.

The church sold properties in enemy lands correct, so now the war is over. Does that not mean they owe people their money back?

Why not get the church to fund more schools like the one in charis? Places to gather and refine knowledge. Make it so these church backed places are the ones more likely to breech the proscriptions.

Weird Harold wrote:

shayvaan wrote:Finances will probably recover relatively quickly since the church no longer has to support armies in the field.

Until the MH is safely stashed somewhere that they can be demobilized, Duchairn had better be supporting them. Leaving several million armed men with no option but to forage from "friendly" territory is a severely bad idea.

I was referring to combat operations. Providing food, clothing and such is still a lot cheaper than all of that PLUS bullets, weapons and other combat-related supplies.

Duchairn has reached an accommodation with Charis. It was the Grand Fornicatior and his policies that were the problem and Duchairn is depicted as having already gone a long way to reforming the COGA.

Just how is the MH supposed to go anywhere other than the landmass it is already on? Do you really think that Chais is going to want to bring several hundreds of thousands of MH men-at-arms into their territory- without their families?
How about Charis just getting home MOST of the Empire troops home to their own families. That would have constraints about maintining an adequate Navy, Marines and Army for all the medium term needs of garrisons, military bases and Empire security.

There is a major refugee problem in all the areas where the fighting too place outside the Empire of Charis. A LOT of that is going to be families or just individual people who no longer have the men of the family do to casualties. These people have often been displaced as well due to the fighting. If the MH can't go back home, they might also be able to be part of the solution to resettling and getting the farms back into production

As Merlin has observed, the genie is out of the bottle to a very great extent. Not only the manufacturing in the Empire but all those people who were involved in the advances of design, innovation and production of the "new" goods with new techniques in the Temple Lands and all that industrial capasity for the COGA has blown out many of the restrictions. The COGA more or less has to allow that to continue as it represents their best hope of being able to rebuild the economic base of support.

Same thing with the potential level of advances in all sorts of fields. Not only have people been give the chance (and encouraged to) innovate, they have been rewarded for it. Merlin is going to continue to feed hints and ideas into this mix.

Even though the CoGA now has all that new "Chairman" tec, they are so far behind what the Empire leadership has - all that Human Federation tech and access to what are effectively magical powers when viewed from the level of COGA standards. Fairly sure Calyb and Merlin aren't going to be handing out those things for a long time.

Charis has to shift it's ecomomy's base from winning the war to being the economic and trading powerhouse. Only way to maintain more than just military control over where things are headed.

SYED wrote:Duchairn has had his faith renewed, dedicated to helping his fellow man and the church. He would be eager to set both it and him on the path of redemption, so why not suggest the church of charis to work in partnership with Zion to abolish serfdom and slavery.
That would force them into conflict with harchong and likely desnair. At the very least the temple lands can abolish those institutions, and likely the border states could be pressured by the church and republic. Dohlar could potentially be convincible.
The church has armed forces, so better keep them occupied, by making harchong seem threatening. How would they react if the temple lands refused to return escaped slave and serfs.

I'm not sure Charis would be too eager to help the Church rebuild or that the Church would want to become dependent upon Charisian financial and material aid, especially given that it would be granted on Charisian terms - like the abolition of serfdom and slavery. Duchairn might be able to get that aid for the Temple Lands, where his control is direct and where he can request the new Temple Lands archbishops to comply with the abolition of slavery (they may have already released quite a few men from their bonds to the land after service in the AOG). But it's doubtful Charis would extend such financial aid to places like Harchong and Desnair. I would also hazard a guess that part of the peace terms with Dohlar was the complete abolition of serfdom and slavery, which would explain the quickness with which Charisian businesses started looking for investment opportunities there. There was always an economic reason for Merlin's demand for the abolition of serfdom and slavery. It facilitated the economic growth of a middle class and eroded aristocratic sentiments of superiority, creating more open societies with greater social mobility, thus pushing modern economic growth and innovation.

But a greater obstacle for Charisian aid would be the new Vicarite itself. Despite the Church's terrible financial situation, I have a feeling that few vicars would countenance the receipt of Charisian financial aid on Charisian terms (i.e. with strings attached), much less requesting such aid if Charis doesn't offer it. Indeed, even if they reach a point whereby they need more money desperately, and the choice is between requesting Charisian aid and "bending" the Proscriptions to attest steam power for both military and civilian uses, I find it hard to believe any in the Vicarite would want to be indebted to Charis. And Charis for its part, has an interest in offering a "Marshal Plan" for mainland realms (besides Siddarmark) in order to rebuild after the Jihad and to specifically exclude the Temple and other realm that is unwilling to accept Charisian terms for that aid. It makes the choice crystal clear for all rulers as to which way the wind is blowing.

I don't doubt that Charis would offer a "Marshall"or perhaps a "Haarald" plan with strings attached. Those strings would include a great many socially and economically liberal policies that very few rulers would stomach. Few rulers and aristos but a great many commoners. The abolition of serfdom and slavery are just the tip of the iceberg. Freedom of speech and religion come next and then some form of republican representation comes after that. Oh, and if one wants foreign direct investments from Charisian millionaires, one might consider safeguards for property ownership in one's legal system.

Charis loses nothing making offers the Safehold elite rejact, but the commoners find reasonable. The more such offers are made only to be rejected, the more stress that society faces. Societies like Desnair and Harchong don't need much to push over the top. I am sure the seijins will disseminate newsletters with all the terms being rejected or accepted. Lord knows nations like Dohlar and Siddermark that accept Charisian aide are not suffering one bit.

A demand for 'republican representation'? From the Empire of Charis? Rather incongruous, don't you think, PeterZ?

Randomiser wrote:A demand for 'republican representation'? From the Empire of Charis? Rather incongruous, don't you think, PeterZ?

Not if Cayleb and Sharley submit themselves and Ahlanah to a plebiscite confirming their authority and succession. They already have Parliament. If the Empire's executives are approved by the people, they become technically a republic.

Does anyone doubt that Cayleb and Sharley would be approved in a plebiscite? If not a plebiscite, confirmation by Parliament. Both would technically qualify as have the rulers authorized/empowered by the people.

Since the House of Ahrmahk own Silverlode as opposed to Emperor Cayleb, he and Sharley will always be able to influence the Empire. If the immigrants to Silverlode both liege men/women to the House of Ahrmahk as well as imperial citizens, it may be that submitting the Emperor to a confirmation plebiscite was part of RFC's plan all along.

PeterZ wrote:

Randomiser wrote:A demand for 'republican representation'? From the Empire of Charis? Rather incongruous, don't you think, PeterZ?

Not if Cayleb and Sharley submit themselves and Ahlanah to a plebiscite confirming their authority and succession. They already have Parliament. If the Empire's executives are approved by the people, they become technically a republic.

Does anyone doubt that Cayleb and Sharley would be approved in a plebiscite? If not a plebiscite, confirmation by Parliament. Both would technically qualify as have the rulers authorized/empowered by the people.

Since the House of Ahrmahk own Silverlode as opposed to Emperor Cayleb, he and Sharley will always be able to influence the Empire. If the immigrants to Silverlode both liege men/women to the House of Ahrmahk as well as imperial citizens, it may be that submitting the Emperor to a confirmation plebiscite was part of RFC's plan all along.

It was stated in BSRA (I think) and by RFC, that the House Ahrmahk had no intention of letting go of the official reigns of power until Charisian society is ready for it and for the truth. And with Merlin and now Nimue to guide them, that transition is likely to come in the form of a gradual relinquishing of their power over time. The process might be completed by the time Ahlanah assumes the throne herself - then again it might not be. Moreover, I always wondered why the Chisholmian Conspiracy featured so prominently over the last two installments. I can't help but wonder that, with the breaking of the Chisholmian aristocracy, Chisholm isn't going to become more attached to Sharleyan (and Cayleb, by extension), rather than less attached. A similar attachment might be seen in Zebediah and possibly even Corisande.

Modern day monarchies (and not the constitutional kind) manage to survive by maintaining the support of the common people through ironclad rules of conduct and succession. So while a transition to the British format might be in the future (especially with Nimue's Welsh background), it is unlikely to emerge over the next 20 Safeholdian years. All this would make demands for republicanism a little hypocritical on Charis' part in any sort of Marshall Plan. Siddarmark might be able to do this, given their attachment to republicanism, but they will require at least a few years of economic recovery before they manage to generate enough surplus to be so generous. So I think Charis' demands will be relatively modest. The elimination of serfdom and slavery as a bare minimum, the elimination of trade tariffs in some areas (mostly in goods the locals couldn't produce themselves), religious tolerance, the recognition and enforcement of Charisian patents and acceptance of Charisian jurisprudence practices (to protect Charisian citizens and interests abroad, obviously). These aren't outrageous demands and that's important in order to ensure that the economic, social and culture center of gravity shift towards Charis (at least without too much resistance).

Thanatos,

While I agree with you, I do believe that pushing for representative governments is the logical progression for the CoC's stance on individual moral responsibility. If God demands the individual be responsible for his moral choices and not simply following Church hierarchy dictates, then would He not also expect the individual to be responsible for choosing his secular governance? Is not government the aggregate embodiment of following God's will? How can that be true unless the individual has some authority to choose their own governance? I believe that argument is the natural extension of everything Charis has done to date.

From that perspective and the simple fact that Cayleb and Sharley have successfully challenged the moral, secular and martial power and authority of the CoGA in defense of their people, Cayleb and Sharley would win a confirmation plebiscite quite handily. Who said they would hand over any more power to the Parliament? They would still have the same authority they currently hold as well as the practical wealth and power of personally owning all that gold in Silverlode. The Plebiscite is a formal admission that their subjects have the authority to choose their rulers, not any assertion of day to day power.

This sets up the narrative for the Return with Charis as the champions of the welfare and moral authority of the people and whoever awakens as the defender of the failed status quo who wishes to stand between the people and God. Force the CoGA to either stand against the welfare of the people and their place with God or support Charis further.

PeterZ wrote:Thanatos,

While I agree with you, I do believe that pushing for representative governments is the logical progression for the CoC's stance on individual moral responsibility. If God demands the individual be responsible for his moral choices and not simply following Church hierarchy dictates, then would He not also expect the individual to be responsible for choosing his secular governance? Is not government the aggregate embodiment of following God's will? How can that be true unless the individual has some authority to choose their own governance? I believe that argument is the natural extension of everything Charis has done to date.

While this sounds very good, at this point in time it would probably lead to a church lead government in each of the territories involved. The people would see it as "God demands it". And it would be pushed from pulpits across the land. At least in non-Charissian associated states.

Besides, who says that a group of people are any wiser than an individual?