Diesel

AirTech wrote:
I have no problem with diesels per se, but pushing too fast risks undermining a broad spread of the technologies (and the associated maintenance infrastructure).

In the last 5 years of book time, we have gone from oared galleys with wheel-less carriages for artillery to armored cruisers with 10" rifled breach-loaders for artillery. In the last 5 years you have gone from muzzle-loading matchlocks to bolt action rifles. Pushing too fast???

Imo yes it would be. Boats to armoured boats isn't a big change. Loading an artillary piece from the back instead of the front isn't a big change. Mobile steam engines is pushing it but a stationary donk replacing a water wheel or windmill isn't.
But ICE is. (To us it isn't but to those living under the prescriptions it would be)

Better to wait until after the war or even try to bypass ICE's entirely.

I think that one needs to keep Merlin's goals in mind. He has no idea when or if the Gbabba will discover Safehold. So, his idea is to push technological development to one that is approximately 50 or more years ahead of the one that Nimue Alban was familiar with in as short of a period of time as feasible. Today, on Earth, 80%+ of all goods are moved by diesel powered transportation. Steam, for other than stationary use such as power production where its use is unavoidable is rapidly disappearing. It takes a minimum of 20 years to change technologies even if that technology is widely accepted and I think that at the early stages, it may take even longer on Safehold. Therefore, it would be very beneficial for the occupants of the planet to skip as many intermediate steps as possible and go for the best technology that can be squeezed out of the proscriptions. We have already seen ample evidence of exactly that course of action.

As for transmissions, I would, if possible, opt for hydraulics which are relatively easy to produce. But that would depend on the qualities of the available oils.

Dutch46 wrote:I think that one needs to keep Merlin's goals in mind. He has no idea when or if the Gbabba will discover Safehold. So, his idea is to push technological development to one that is approximately 50 or more years ahead of the one that Nimue Alban was familiar with in as short of a period of time as feasible.

Feasible -- a good word. What is "feasible" before the writ and proscriptions are overturned is not the same as what is "feasible" after the war against the Go4 is won.

Dutch46 wrote:Today, on Earth, 80%+ of all goods are moved by diesel powered transportation. Steam, for other than stationary use such as power production where its use is unavoidable is rapidly disappearing. It takes a minimum of 20 years to change technologies even if that technology is widely accepted and I think that at the early stages, it may take even longer on Safehold.

Wouldn't this be a prime argument against converting from Steam to ICE technology? Why not just skip over the ICE tech base and go to electric powered transport? (Or whatever handwavium powers the SNARCs and Merlin's skimmer.

Dutch46 wrote:Therefore, it would be very beneficial for the occupants of the planet to skip as many intermediate steps as possible and go for the best technology that can be squeezed out of the proscriptions.

Why squeeze more than is absolutely required to overturn the Proscriptions when you intend to go far beyond them as quickly as possible after they're overturned? Isn't that just muddying the waters for further advancements?

WeirdHarold wrote:

snip
"Wouldn't this be a prime argument against converting from Steam to ICE technology? Why not just skip over the ICE tech base and go to electric powered transport? (Or whatever handwavium powers the SNARCs and Merlin's skimmer." snip

The vast majority of large diesels are electromechanical. That is, the diesel drives a generator which in turn drives the motors that turn the wheels or the propeller. Pure electric propulsion has drawbacks similar to those of steam propulsion, lack of range, load carrying capacity and the need for frequent and lengthy stops to recharge the batteries. Handwaivium power is a rather long way off and would be a hard sell to a population that will be in shock when they see the first diesel truck coming down the road.

Dutch46 wrote:I think that one needs to keep Merlin's goals in mind. He has no idea when or if the Gbabba will discover Safehold. So, his idea is to push technological development to one that is approximately 50 or more years ahead of the one that Nimue Alban was familiar with in as short of a period of time as feasible. Today, on Earth, 80%+ of all goods are moved by diesel powered transportation. Steam, for other than stationary use such as power production where its use is unavoidable is rapidly disappearing. It takes a minimum of 20 years to change technologies even if that technology is widely accepted and I think that at the early stages, it may take even longer on Safehold. Therefore, it would be very beneficial for the occupants of the planet to skip as many intermediate steps as possible and go for the best technology that can be squeezed out of the proscriptions. We have already seen ample evidence of exactly that course of action.

As for transmissions, I would, if possible, opt for hydraulics which are relatively easy to produce. But that would depend on the qualities of the available oils.

Actually, that's not true. The Federation was fairly certain that if the Gbaba did not discover Safehold within the first few hundred years, it would be safe for a long time. The Federation was convinced that the Gbaba would stop looking after a few hundred years at most. The Gbaba do not appear to expand very much, if at all. So there is no reason for Merlin to fear discovery by the Gbaba in the next thousand years.

The reason Shan Wei was concerned about Langhorne's plan was not the fear that the Gbaba would discover Safehold. She knew that Langhorne's suppression of technology would eventually fail; she feared that Safehold would eventually go back into space and accidentally run into the Gbaba without knowing they needed to watch out and prepare for them.

Merlin (and David Weber) had originally planned to take hundreds of years to slowly guide Safehold back to a technological state. The current accelerated pace of development is due to Merlin's (and David's) unexpected fondness for Charis and its current leaders.

Dutch46 wrote:The vast majority of large diesels are electromechanical. That is, the diesel drives a generator which in turn drives the motors that turn the wheels or the propeller.

I'd quibble about "the vast majority" but we'd run into the problem of defining "large diesels" -- I consider 18 wheelers as "large diesels," for example, and I suspect you don't.

Dutch46 wrote:Pure electric propulsion has drawbacks similar to those of steam propulsion, lack of range, load carrying capacity and the need for frequent and lengthy stops to recharge the batteries.

I wouldn't judge what is possible for Safehold by what the real world has managed to accomplish against the economic pressure of the auto industry and Big Oil's influence. Most countries around the world don't have the USA's fetish for independent personal transport and have vastly more extensive mass transit systems powered in large part by Electricity.


Safehold has the opportunity to bypass dependence on ICEs, personal transport, and fossil fuels, with the advantage of OWL and Merlin's databases they can go directly from Steam to advanced batteries and transmitted power without fouling the atmosphere with ICE exhaust.

Dutch46 wrote:Handwaivium power is a rather long way off and would be a hard sell to a population that will be in shock when they see the first diesel truck coming down the road.

Not if they skip over the Diesel truck to an Electric Truck running off a catenary overhead powerline shared with the public transport trams.

I have no idea what is required for "handwavium power" and it may seem simple and obvious when MWW gets around to describing it -- it might be "Mr. Fusion" a la Back To The Future; It might be broadcast power a la Nicola Tesla.

Dutch46 wrote:WeirdHarold wrote:

snip
"Wouldn't this be a prime argument against converting from Steam to ICE technology? Why not just skip over the ICE tech base and go to electric powered transport? (Or whatever handwavium powers the SNARCs and Merlin's skimmer." snip

The vast majority of large diesels are electromechanical. That is, the diesel drives a generator which in turn drives the motors that turn the wheels or the propeller. Pure electric propulsion has drawbacks similar to those of steam propulsion, lack of range, load carrying capacity and the need for frequent and lengthy stops to recharge the batteries. Handwaivium power is a rather long way off and would be a hard sell to a population that will be in shock when they see the first diesel truck coming down the road.

Steam power is indistinguishable from diesel regards range, load carrying capacity, and (in the more modern designs) fuel consumption (in fact steam engines use slightly less fuel). Water consumption on open circuit steam engines and the long start-up times from the boilers. Steam engines load swing capabilities can also be less than sterling performance (particularly fire tube boilers (the only designs that are worse are Scotch boilers or Lancashire boilers due to the large ratio of surface area to water mass).
Given the probability of being nuked by the OBS, electric power and power transmission (including electric ignition, electric brakes and magnetic induction clutches) are contraindicated in the near future (as the eddy currents are detectable).
The two ways a diesel could be used for land transport would involve complex mechanical gearboxes or a variable hydraulic transmission (possibly with power recovery (Hydraulic Hybrid Drive), either requires the precision machining being learned by making steam engines (marine, static and rail road), rifles with interchangeable parts and steel ship building (the last is a work in progress). (Marine diesels are generally run at constant speed, so complex gearing is not required, variable pitch propellers are used where cruising speed varies significantly).

AitTech wrote:

"Steam power is indistinguishable from diesel regards range, load carrying capacity, and (in the more modern designs) fuel consumption (in fact steam engines use slightly less fuel)."

I don't think that is the case. There are thermodynamic losses in steam power that are not present in diesel power. The energy content of diesel fuel is also quite a bit higher than that of coal:

http://wogone.com/science/the_energy_an ... _sheet.pdf

I would suspect that Charis will start out by developing relatively inefficient diesel but rapidly work up to more efficient ones. Steam development will come to a standstill in the not that distant future as they attempt to increase efficiency through the use of higher pressure. Since the inner circle is well aware of what happens to boiler tubes as heat transfer rates are increased without adequate metallurgical considerations which they do not, at the present time have or can even acquire, they will come to a standstill very rapidly. without electricity, they will be severely limited in what they can do with steam. They can make some gains by going to a closed feedwater cycle but that requires condensers and immense amounts of cooling water which they have no real means to push around even though that is a very low head pressure process. It is however, RFCs world and he can make it run any way he thinks will advance the story.

Dutch46 wrote:I don't think that is the case. There are thermodynamic losses in steam power that are not present in diesel power. The energy content of diesel fuel is also quite a bit higher than that of coal:

Aren't you making an unwarranted assumption that Charis will stick with coal and not fire their steam engines with liquid or gaseous fuels?

Dutch46 wrote:I would suspect that Charis will start out by developing relatively inefficient diesel but rapidly work up to more efficient ones. Steam development will come to a standstill in the not that distant future as they attempt to increase efficiency through the use of higher pressure.

Charis went straight past 150 years of steam development to 300 psi, triple expansion steam engines. Why would they not jump over an equivalent development of Diesel?

Dutch46 wrote:... they will be severely limited in what they can do with steam. ...

They've already surpassed most steam engines ever used in the real world. Why would they be "severely limited" in any way?