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[Spoiler] The final chapter

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:14 am

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Annachie wrote:Personally I suspect the conversation will be along the lines of "No matter what happens your family is safe".
Honestly, little more needs to be said.

Thirsk will be primed to do what he thinks is best for Dohlar. Whether that is a coup or a prompt surrender.

Right. Whatever calculations may be in place, Merlin is a caring person, and beyond that, likes and respects Thirsk. He will be informed his family is alive, safe, and will remain so.

After that, anything is on the table. Thirsk's thoughts suggested he thinks he could make nice enough with the Inquisition by backing their story, so they'd let him live while he still produced good work for the jihad. So if he can be made to care about living - and the news about his family will deliver that result - he can survive in place for a while longer.

I do think he's unlikely to accept a non-role in freeing his nation and world from Clyntahn. He's not someone to settle back and avoid action, else he'd've managed to avoid service after Armageddon Reef. I also doubt he'd take arms against Dohlar, or be sufficiently employed somewhere else.

The likeliest scenario I see is resuming his service after getting his soul and arm back in serviceable shape, preparatory to liberating Dohlar - from the inside - from the Church of Clyntahn.
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by Montrose Toast   » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:53 pm

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1. Remember Merlin's goal. It is not "Charis uber alles."

2. Removing Dohlar from the war is enough - occupation would tie down too many troops. Watch Alverez and his 20,000 very loyal troops - he saved them when the Church's appointed leader failed.

3. The weapons and tech being developed now [incl KH VIIs] might not see action in this war - they could be setting up for the reveal and that war. After all, how many ships were built too late for a war and then saw action in the next one.

4. How many books left in this war? How much time? Much of what we are seeing now in development and manufacture is forshadowing of the tools for the next war...

5. How many troops does the Church have left that are not National forces? The death of CoGA as a nation/military power has already been established - the signature on the death certificate is comming soon. Which leaves Temple Loyalists scattered everywhere for the forthcoming civil war oppon the reveal.

This war is about to end and many of the events occuring now are part of the setup for the next one...
"Who Dares Wins"
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by SciFi90   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:39 am

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Stormy wrote:Spoiler, which probably doesn't need said ...
The nature and character of Earl Thirsk will be determined by Mr. Weber. Certain hints, such as his anger at being forced to turn over captives, and his feeling of revulsion at Clyntahn's actions and character, as written by Mr. Weber, suggest that he will agree to go to Charis. Whether he will be given any military role is up to Mr.Weber. Depriving Dohlar of his abilities might be enough.








In HFQ, it says that Dohlar's King has a not quite 16 year old heir. And that the King has actually discussed abdicating on at least more than one occasion with Duke Fern and been talked out of it, because a Regency for his heir was not something Duke Fern thought wise at that time. So it's quitWe probable that if enough of the powerful potential regents in Dohlar decided that getting rid of the King was beneficial, he would very likely be willing to step down, no need for assassins, from them, anyway.
But considering that the King has basically turned most decision making over to his council and Duke Fern in particular, he's already pretty much abdicated in everything but name.
So I'm not sure that just getting rid of the King would change much for Dohlar, depending on how and why the King gets taken out of the picture ...

I'm very interested to see how the convo with Thirsk goes, as I can't see what he can do, that is consistent with his morals. They pretty much have to tell him that his family is okay, to be decent human beings and because hiding it from him and him finding out in the wrong way could have some downsides for them too. I'm sure hoping the next book will finish this discussion "in the moment" not as some flashback recap!

And yet, even if he truly believes that they will not try to use them to control him, the fact that his family is in their hands has to influence him and his actions, to at least an extent. And he was already thinking that Clinton would wake soon to the fact that he has no leverage on him anymore and be moved to try and get rid of him even sooner. Nor do I think he could obey one more dishonorable command from the Church, he's about at the breaking point there right now and now Clinton has no hostages.
On the other hand, I don't see him turning his coat and being able to betray his country, king and the navy he helped build by going over to Charis directly, especially being willing to fight for them against Dohlar.

With as much character development as there has been with him though, I don't see him sitting out the rest of the story arc either. I could definitely see him becoming a friendly rival to Charis though, if he and who knows who else, can somehow get Dohlar out of the Jihad and breakaway from the direction of the Group of 4.
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by SciFi90   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:03 am

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Montrose Toast wrote:1. Remember Merlin's goal. It is not "Charis uber alles."

2. Removing Dohlar from the war is enough - occupation would tie down too many troops. Watch Alverez and his 20,000 very loyal troops - he saved them when the Church's appointed leader failed.

3. The weapons and tech being developed now [incl KH VIIs] might not see action in this war - they could be setting up for the reveal and that war. After all, how many ships were built too late for a war and then saw action in the next one.

4. How many books left in this war? How much time? Much of what we are seeing now in development and manufacture is forshadowing of the tools for the next war...

5. How many troops does the Church have left that are not National forces? The death of CoGA as a nation/military power has already been established - the signature on the death certificate is comming soon. Which leaves Temple Loyalists scattered everywhere for the forthcoming civil war oppon the reveal.

This war is about to end and many of the events occuring now are part of the setup for the next one...

Readers must remember that the difference between Safehold's present development and one required to combat the Gbaba is vast, and at the present indicated pace of advance, as much as another century might reasonably be expected. Merlin and Nimue will carry on, but present characters will all be dead, and new generations will be born. It depends on how long Mr. Weber wants to string it out.
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by Bosparan   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:04 am

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Montrose Toast wrote:
1. Remember Merlin's goal. It is not "Charis uber alles."

2. Removing Dohlar from the war is enough - occupation would tie down too many troops. Watch Alverez and his 20,000 very loyal troops - he saved them when the Church's appointed leader failed.

3. The weapons and tech being developed now [incl KH VIIs] might not see action in this war - they could be setting up for the reveal and that war. After all, how many ships were built too late for a war and then saw action in the next one.

4. How many books left in this war? How much time? Much of what we are seeing now in development and manufacture is forshadowing of the tools for the next war...

5. How many troops does the Church have left that are not National forces? The death of CoGA as a nation/military power has already been established - the signature on the death certificate is comming soon. Which leaves Temple Loyalists scattered everywhere for the forthcoming civil war oppon the reveal.

This war is about to end and many of the events occuring now are part of the setup for the next one...

Ehm, did you get confused with the thread and accidentally posted in the wrong one? I really can't find how this unintroduced and nonreferenced post with unrelated arguments fits in here.

Oh well ...
2) Dohlar has quite some more troops than that left, including fresh recruitments.
4) I could see two more books coming, though one could suffice.
5) They are currently building up again - to numbers somewhere in the high 6-digit range, though the specified number eludes me at the moment - and thanks to the Harchongian forces plus the onsetting winter they are in no position to interfere with that.
Sure, they won't be able to finance them for too long - I agree that this war is in its ending phase (within the next two years in-story, I'd expect) - but the butcher's bill hasn't been paid in full yet.

Cheers,
Bosparan
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by AClone   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:00 pm

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In preface, I'll say that I don't know if Clyntahn would leave Thirsk in place--without his family in Zion to control him.

However, if Thirsk DOES stay in command of Dohlar's navy, am I the only one who could see him, at some crucial juncture, taking the fleet out to "attack" Claw Island (or even Chisholm or Corisande)--neatly going wherever the ICN isn't?

just a thought.
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by n7axw   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:17 pm

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AClone wrote:In preface, I'll say that I don't know if Clyntahn would leave Thirsk in place--without his family in Zion to control him.

However, if Thirsk DOES stay in command of Dohlar's navy, am I the only one who could see him, at some crucial juncture, taking the fleet out to "attack" Claw Island (or even Chisholm or Corisande)--neatly going wherever the ICN isn't?

just a thought.


Clyntahn has already put out instructions to have Thirsk arrested the next summer after he completes his "investigation" of what happened to the rescued prisoners.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by Expert snuggler   » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:31 pm

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I missed that!
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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by Annachie   » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:49 am

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I rather suspect that Thirsk realizes that the only way both himself and his country will survive is to remove the inquisition.
Hence Merlin just saying that Thirsk's family is safe and letting him get on with it.

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Re: [Spoiler] The final chapter
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:22 am

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Montrose Toast wrote:4. How many books left in this war? How much time? Much of what we are seeing now in development and manufacture is forshadowing of the tools for the next war...

5. How many troops does the Church have left that are not National forces? The death of CoGA as a nation/military power has already been established - the signature on the death certificate is comming soon. Which leaves Temple Loyalists scattered everywhere for the forthcoming civil war oppon the reveal.

This war is about to end and many of the events occuring now are part of the setup for the next one...


4. 1 or just possibly 2, according to RFC's last comments on the matter

5 Well they are intending to raise or train an army of 4 or 500,000 this winter (I forget which), which is far from chickenfeed. Also the church has never needed an army of it's own before the present unpleasantness, because it has always relied on forces from various nations when required (hence all those former Temple Guard officers suddenly frocked as AOG officers and Bishops Militant). On that front they expect a Harchongese contribution of about 2.5 Million by next campaigning season. The CoGA has lots of problems but lack of warm bodies in uniform sure isn't one of them. Rumours of their death have been greatly exaggerated!
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