HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

PeterZ wrote:If Duchairn promises reform under terms that the Allies must accept, the Allies will have no choice but to give peace a chance. This will be especially true, if Clyntahn is killed and the Inquisition is purged of his cronies. If the EoC ignores the honest peace overtures by Duchairn, it will be correctly seen as a desire to destroy the CoGA not to reform it. That will destroy the support of many in Old Charis and likely most in Siddermark and the rest of the Empire. They can't risk that.

Not necessarily. EoC can respond with a counteroffer that is reasonable yet gives them a good chunk of what they want, and leaves CoGA much less power.
For example, they can ask for reparations for attack on Siddarmark. If CoGA admits that it was wrong to attack Siddarmark, then asking for reparations for the damage - which is considerable - is acceptable and reasonable... and just might be out of reach of the CoGA in its current fiscal position.
In fact, they could ask that CoGA pays it out of its current resources, since it would be obviously unjust that they simply shift the burden on other realms, and use tithes, that people pay as a service to God, to pay for an abuse by Church leaders.

I believe that as long as they have the Harchong contingent - that million+ amount of soldiers - the CoGA will not entertain thoughts of a negotiation.
But if that army is destroyed too, EoC will be in an extremely strong position, from which they can dictate the terms of any negotiated peace.

For example... they can ask for full access to the Temple, to investigate wrongdoings of Clyntahn and others, to check for remaining Charisian POWs, etc etc. Diplomats and politicians can invent a hundred reasons.

Once in, the real first priority is to shut down the OBS. After that, the negotiations may go however they may go, since EoC and Siddarmark can start on electricity and everything else, and in 50 years any war will be rather short. (Or the entire planet will have it, and with soon see the Writ for what it is).

Speaking of proofs against the Writ, the cosmology in there is the prime example. All you need are some telescopes. And with satellites etc (after electricity and radio, all possible after OBS is turned off), this part of the Writ can be proven false, at which point everything can unravel.

EoC can also demand that the Church is never again given such lands, money and effectively a realm on its own, in order to protect the people from another attack like in the current war. They can leave the Church at the status like the CoCharis has - it has buildings and some real estate, but that's that; it doesn't have a kingdom on its own (The Temple Lands). It cannot raise an army in its own right.

Which also leaves the question as to who gets to rule the Temple Lands, together and in parts, since many vicars won't be left a penny - those that worked with Clyntahn.

With EoC/RS army in there, EoC can ensure that the next ruler of that area is aligned with EoC in one way or another.

And if the CoGA refuses, well, then we keep going on with the war. The support from the people will be there, as long as we're winning.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:snip
If Duchairn promises reform under terms that the Allies must accept, the Allies will have no choice but to give peace a chance. This will be especially true, if Clyntahn is killed and the Inquisition is purged of his cronies. If the EoC ignores the honest peace overtures by Duchairn, it will be correctly seen as a desire to destroy the CoGA not to reform it. That will destroy the support of many in Old Charis and likely most in Siddermark and the rest of the Empire. They can't risk that.

I am not saying these options are best for the EoC and the good guys. I am saying these are the menu of options Duchairn will have before him. His projected decisions are based on the text of his internal monologues. I don't believe these fundamental elements of Safehold will change until the Writ is discredited and that won't be possible until the Return.

snip
And I think you are giving the Church of God Awaiting (Temple branch) far too much respect and affection in the eyes of the people it has condemned to fire and death, who have broken navy after navy and army after army sent by Zion to torture and kill them and their children. They've got their Church(es) now and they kinda like them. In Siddarmark's case, they've really got blood in their eyes, after the "godly" men of the Temple, anointed by Langhorne with the safety of their souls, cast them into bloody civil war, disease, starvation, rape and pillage.

I do think these people can resist quite a few sorts of peace offers and still think they're in the right. Religion here on Earth surely has that effect, and their own readings of the Writ can pull it off as well.

I am not in total disagreement, Jeff. The distinction is one that I find in Koryn Gahrvai's father. He did not believe the CoGA was so much at fault as that Maikel was a better example of one of God's shepherds than Clyntahn. I suspect that many in the Empire hold a similar view. Furthermore, I believe Reformists easily separate between the CoGA and the potential it represents as God's creation and as an organization of men that has disappointed God greatly.

If that organization of men refuses to admit their error in brutalizing those they were supposed to protect, those men deserve destruction. If some or all of those men try to reform God's gift to mankind back into an organization that shepherds God's children with love, they prove themselves to be worthy of God's blessings. Yes, even if they have failed initially, they can still find redemption.

I will disagree that I give too much credit to the CoGA in the eyes of Safeholdians. The Church is a gift from God. Any harm caused by the Church is a product of corrupt and venal men, not the fundamental structure of God's gift to His children. That is consistent with and inseparable from all the other blessings from God and His archangels. I don't believe Safeholdians can believe that the CoGA itself and the Writ it is defined by is the root of the problem. They simply have to toss out too much of their all encompassing theology an moral paradigm to do this. Because if the CoGA is fundamentally harmful to mankind, then God's gift is fundamentally flawed. How can God gift mankind with something so flawed? That's simply not possible. If men are the cause of the current turmoil, changing what men have contrived in the CoGA should mend the problem.

At best then the schism is driven by corrupt and venal men that forced righteous men to resist the misuse of the CoGA authority. At worst the schism is driven by unjust men responding beyond measure to the righteous if overzealous demands of God's church.

These would be the predominant POVs on Safehold regarding the schism. Almost no one would consider the CoGA as was founded by God and His archangels as the primary cause of the schism. If the men in charge of the CoGA have a change of heart, then God again might bless His Church. Should the EoC be driven by the shallow fears sparked by Shan-wei and reject a true offer of peaceful negotiations, is that not proof that no matter the outward justification the heretics are truly moved by the Dark? What do just men motivated in congruence with God's will have to fear from God's Church once again guided by godly men? Any doubts MUST be the product of Shan-wei. Or so the argument will go.

PeterZ wrote:I will disagree that I give too much credit to the CoGA in the eyes of Safeholdians. The Church is a gift from God. Any harm caused by the Church is a product of corrupt and venal men, not the fundamental structure of God's gift to His children. That is consistent with and inseparable from all the other blessings from God and His archangels. I don't believe Safeholdians can believe that the CoGA itself and the Writ it is defined by is the root of the problem. They simply have to toss out too much of their all encompassing theology an moral paradigm to do this. Because if the CoGA is fundamentally harmful to mankind, then God's gift is fundamentally flawed. How can God gift mankind with something so flawed? That's simply not possible. If men are the cause of the current turmoil, changing what men have contrived in the CoGA should mend the problem.

EoC/CoC can also present (at the time of the Great Reveal) that people believed in God much before this entire Safehold episode in the history of humanity.
They can present other religions and scriptures - Bible, Quran, Torah, Vedas and Puranas, what you will.

The logic here is that the whole CoGA is one giant abuse of religion - but that it doesn't mean that God Himself doesn't exist or that a religion as an idea is wrong.

And I believe that's what RFC is aiming at.

In this way, religious people are not asked to become atheists; only to widen their views a bit. (of course, "a bit" is... a bit of an understatement here)

Aethor wrote:Not necessarily. EoC can respond with a counteroffer that is reasonable yet gives them a good chunk of what they want, and leaves CoGA much less power.
For example, they can ask for reparations for attack on Siddarmark. If CoGA admits that it was wrong to attack Siddarmark, then asking for reparations for the damage - which is considerable - is acceptable and reasonable... and just might be out of reach of the CoGA in its current fiscal position.
In fact, they could ask that CoGA pays it out of its current resources, since it would be obviously unjust that they simply shift the burden on other realms, and use tithes, that people pay as a service to God, to pay for an abuse by Church leaders.

I believe that as long as they have the Harchong contingent - that million+ amount of soldiers - the CoGA will not entertain thoughts of a negotiation.
But if that army is destroyed too, EoC will be in an extremely strong position, from which they can dictate the terms of any negotiated peace.

For example... they can ask for full access to the Temple, to investigate wrongdoings of Clyntahn and others, to check for remaining Charisian POWs, etc etc. Diplomats and politicians can invent a hundred reasons.

Once in, the real first priority is to shut down the OBS. After that, the negotiations may go however they may go, since EoC and Siddarmark can start on electricity and everything else, and in 50 years any war will be rather short. (Or the entire planet will have it, and with soon see the Writ for what it is).

Speaking of proofs against the Writ, the cosmology in there is the prime example. All you need are some telescopes. And with satellites etc (after electricity and radio, all possible after OBS is turned off), this part of the Writ can be proven false, at which point everything can unravel.

EoC can also demand that the Church is never again given such lands, money and effectively a realm on its own, in order to protect the people from another attack like in the current war. They can leave the Church at the status like the CoCharis has - it has buildings and some real estate, but that's that; it doesn't have a kingdom on its own (The Temple Lands). It cannot raise an army in its own right.

Which also leaves the question as to who gets to rule the Temple Lands, together and in parts, since many vicars won't be left a penny - those that worked with Clyntahn.

With EoC/RS army in there, EoC can ensure that the next ruler of that area is aligned with EoC in one way or another.

And if the CoGA refuses, well, then we keep going on with the war. The support from the people will be there, as long as we're winning.

All the demands from the EoC/CoC must be consistent with what the Writ allows the CoGA. Demanding the CoGA be prohibited from something that the Writ already asserts is the CoGA's responsibility is a non-starter. That would guarantee the CoC be viewed as acting to support the Dark.

PeterZ wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I do think these people can resist quite a few sorts of peace offers and still think they're in the right. Religion here on Earth surely has that effect, and their own readings of the Writ can pull it off as well.

I am not in total disagreement, Jeff. The distinction is one that I find in Koryn Gahrvai's father. He did not believe the CoGA was so much at fault as that Maikel was a better example of one of God's shepherds than Clyntahn. I suspect that many in the Empire hold a similar view. Furthermore, I believe Reformists easily separate between the CoGA and the potential it represents as God's creation and as an organization of men that has disappointed God greatly.

If that organization of men refuses to admit their error in brutalizing those they were supposed to protect, those men deserve destruction. If some or all of those men try to reform God's gift to mankind back into an organization that shepherds God's children with love, they prove themselves to be worthy of God's blessings. Yes, even if they have failed initially, they can still find redemption.

I think a lot of the spectrum of points of view may trade in on the ambiguity of "the Church". If someone isn't committed to a single universal Church organization, they may still have a concept of "the Church" as the total of Safeholdian Churches that respect and follow the Writ in some reasonable fashion. Someone who could look forward to peace on Safehold with the Church of Charis, the (chastened, reformed) Church out of Zion, and perhaps other national churches all getting along well enough and jointly representing that Church. I'd even peg that as a common view in Charis these days: they are not out, as such, to reform the Church out of Zion; they are not out to replace it; they want and expect their own Church with their own selected bishops and archbishops and Writ interpretation. The role of the Church out of Zion in that scheme is to stay out of their way, whether it be in the Temple Loyalist church down the street or thousands of miles away.

I will disagree that I give too much credit to the CoGA in the eyes of Safeholdians. The Church is a gift from God. Any harm caused by the Church is a product of corrupt and venal men, not the fundamental structure of God's gift to His children. That is consistent with and inseparable from all the other blessings from God and His archangels. I don't believe Safeholdians can believe that the CoGA itself and the Writ it is defined by is the root of the problem. They simply have to toss out too much of their all encompassing theology an moral paradigm to do this. Because if the CoGA is fundamentally harmful to mankind, then God's gift is fundamentally flawed. How can God gift mankind with something so flawed? That's simply not possible. If men are the cause of the current turmoil, changing what men have contrived in the CoGA should mend the problem.

A bit more than shuffling the management may be called for. It's how the Church has been organized that has led to this. It's been a vehicle for worldly power, and it's been detached from its pastoral duty. In that respect, the Church of Charis may not just represent an emergency measure by people violently flung out of the Church's care: it's a deliberate, permanent, intentional reversion to local control of the Church. (And that isn't a matter of going against the Writ: it's a matter of going against a historical shift.) A decentralized Church, a friendly association of national or otherwise differentiated Churches, would prevent the kind of abuses of power that led to this, whoever may be put in charge. Or at least reduce the likelihood of it and potential damage.

But that would mean accepting permanent, structural changes in the organization of Safehold's religious life - to try to avoid the possible confusion referring to "the Church" may cause - and that's both something Charisians (even Gahrvai Senior) seem to demand now and something Duchairn cannot quite yet consider.

At best then the schism is driven by corrupt and venal men that forced righteous men to resist the misuse of the CoGA authority. At worst the schism is driven by unjust men responding beyond measure to the righteous if overzealous demands of God's church.

These would be the predominant POVs on Safehold regarding the schism. Almost no one would consider the CoGA as was founded by God and His archangels as the primary cause of the schism. If the men in charge of the CoGA have a change of heart, then God again might bless His Church. Should the EoC be driven by the shallow fears sparked by Shan-wei and reject a true offer of peaceful negotiations, is that not proof that no matter the outward justification the heretics are truly moved by the Dark? What do just men motivated in congruence with God's will have to fear from God's Church once again guided by godly men? Any doubts MUST be the product of Shan-wei. Or so the argument will go.

I'm sure hardliners, and those for whom a permanent division of Safehold's priesthood is unthinkable, would make and accept that argument. But for those for whom a unified Church is a kind of ideal of brotherhood rather than an organizational chart demanded by God, for whom locally selected archbishops are required and no Imperial Zion is permitted any longer, an acceptable Zion is a Zion stripped of the power to compel, and serious negotiations have to take that as a starting point.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:snip
At best then the schism is driven by corrupt and venal men that forced righteous men to resist the misuse of the CoGA authority. At worst the schism is driven by unjust men responding beyond measure to the righteous if overzealous demands of God's church.

These would be the predominant POVs on Safehold regarding the schism. Almost no one would consider the CoGA as was founded by God and His archangels as the primary cause of the schism. If the men in charge of the CoGA have a change of heart, then God again might bless His Church. Should the EoC be driven by the shallow fears sparked by Shan-wei and reject a true offer of peaceful negotiations, is that not proof that no matter the outward justification the heretics are truly moved by the Dark? What do just men motivated in congruence with God's will have to fear from God's Church once again guided by godly men? Any doubts MUST be the product of Shan-wei. Or so the argument will go.

I'm sure hardliners, and those for whom a permanent division of Safehold's priesthood is unthinkable, would make and accept that argument. But for those for whom a unified Church is a kind of ideal of brotherhood rather than an organizational chart demanded by God, for whom locally selected archbishops are required and no Imperial Zion is permitted any longer, an acceptable Zion is a Zion stripped of the power to compel, and serious negotiations have to take that as a starting point.

That's where it appears we truly disagree. Your posts where I snipped, we do agree.

There is no existing view that "The Church" is an idealized brotherhood of believers. That there could be a group of godly men that do not believe the Writ is THE source of God's wisdom available to men is beyond comprehension for Safehold. I will grant that godly men will come to agree with what God desires from mankind. I disagree that the concept of The Church is defined so loosely as an organization of godly men is acceptable to Safeholdians. The Writ asserts the Church is much more than such a loose amalgamation of people. That it is a structured organization established to facilitate God's plan.

Making this argument and persuading people that this argument has weight must be accomplished using the Writ. It would be more effective if those the loyalists believe are godly within the CoGA are persuaded before it might appear that military force dictated what the CoGA must agree to.

I may be wrong, but isn't the key difference between the CoGA and the CoC that the former has arrogated to itself the right to instruct (as compared to inform) the laity what is right and what is wrong, and has conferred infallibility on its archbishops to enforce the "fashionable" viewpoint? All the CoC has done is restore the previously existing state of affairs, where infallibility was restricted to the archangels. I think there's a passage early in OAR which deals with it.

It is that power in the hands of venal men which is the source of Safehold's problems. As soon as the right to make their own decisions has been restored to the laity, so that the priests can advise but not command, I suspect that the remaining differences between the CoGA and the CoC will be minor and possibly not insurmountable.

The fact that the archangels were anything but, and have perpetrated a near-thousand-year fraud on the people is a linked but different matter. I can't pretend to try and second-guess RFC on how he is going to deal with that one!

Peter2 wrote:I may be wrong, but isn't the key difference between the CoGA and the CoC that the former has arrogated to itself the right to instruct (as compared to inform) the laity what is right and what is wrong, and has conferred infallibility on its archbishops to enforce the "fashionable" viewpoint? All the CoC has done is restore the previously existing state of affairs, where infallibility was restricted to the archangels. I think there's a passage early in OAR which deals with it.

It is that power in the hands of venal men which is the source of Safehold's problems. As soon as the right to make their own decisions has been restored to the laity, so that the priests can advise but not command, I suspect that the remaining differences between the CoGA and the CoC will be minor and possibly not insurmountable.

The fact that the archangels were anything but, and have perpetrated a near-thousand-year fraud on the people is a linked but different matter. I can't pretend to try and second-guess RFC on how he is going to deal with that one!

Not exactly. The CoGA as a body has always had the power the Inquisition exercises today. The difference is that the powers to define, judge and punish heresy had originally been separated from each other. Different orders had responsibility over different aspects prosecuting heresy. Each competing order kept the others from arrogating too much power upon itself.

That's why the CoC has rejected the Inquisition. Rather I suspect that's why the CoC publically rejects the combined powers of the Inquisition as practiced by Clyntahn. Reforming the Inquisition would be a fundamental requirement of any negotiation involving the CoC.

PeterZ wrote:

Peter2 wrote:I may be wrong, but isn't the key difference between the CoGA and the CoC that the former has arrogated to itself the right to instruct (as compared to inform) the laity what is right and what is wrong, and has conferred infallibility on its archbishops to enforce the "fashionable" viewpoint? All the CoC has done is restore the previously existing state of affairs, where infallibility was restricted to the archangels. I think there's a passage early in OAR which deals with it.

It is that power in the hands of venal men which is the source of Safehold's problems. As soon as the right to make their own decisions has been restored to the laity, so that the priests can advise but not command, I suspect that the remaining differences between the CoGA and the CoC will be minor and possibly not insurmountable.

The fact that the archangels were anything but, and have perpetrated a near-thousand-year fraud on the people is a linked but different matter. I can't pretend to try and second-guess RFC on how he is going to deal with that one!

Not exactly. The CoGA as a body has always had the power the Inquisition exercises today. The difference is that the powers to define, judge and punish heresy had originally been separated from each other. Different orders had responsibility over different aspects prosecuting heresy. Each competing order kept the others from arrogating too much power upon itself.

I see – thanks.

That's why the CoC has rejected the Inquisition. Rather I suspect that's why the CoC publically rejects the combined powers of the Inquisition as practiced by Clyntahn. Reforming the Inquisition would be a fundamental requirement of any negotiation involving the CoC.

Agreed wholeheartedly. The Inquisition has to be torn down, and rebuilt in a far less dominant form – if it is rebuilt at all.

Hi PeterZ,

Several points here.

First if all, I have no objection to someone who wants to revere the archangels providing no one else is coerced into doing the same.

Secondly, one of the core issues here is the corruption of the senior clergy which gave rise to and enabled the G-4 and its bad behavior. I see no way to negotiate with that. The Council of Vicars should be done away with, or failing that be replaced by better people. As for the COGA faithful, they must be confronted with the reality of what their church has become along with being brought face to face with the crminality of its actions. If some believe that the victors "are of the dark" for bringing about that confrontation, so be it. The system as it is presently constituted must not be left in place.

Thirdly the COGA's power to enforce the proscriptions must be abolished. I understand that the proscriptions themselves cannot be made to instantly disappear. But if they are not enforced, their power over peoples' minds will start to fade. The ties on the straightjacket COGA has had on Safehold need to be loosened. I well understand that the straightjacket cannot be abruptly torn away, but if the ties are loosened, it will eventually be discarded.

Finally, remember that the foundation upon which the COGA is built is a fraud. That fraud should not be enabled, but exposed for what it is at the earliest moment it can be prudently done.

None of this is served by anything other than a clean cut alliance victory. In fact I don't think that Zion itself should be left in COGA hands. It should become internationally controlled neutral ground that is a part of the religious/cultural heritage of all of Safehold.

Don