You're quite right in your terminology and references regarding princes, but not all here as familiar as you appear to be.
May we know a little of your background, possibly an interest in the Renaissance, professionally or personally?
You are very kind, probably overly polite, and rather eloquent; but allow me to apologise in appearing to suggest I expected Thirsk and Ahlverez to be co-rulers in the empire.
Cayleb, Sharleyan and the inner circle have been very wise in avoiding continental territorial commitments.
I don't see them wanting to rule or attempting to control Dohlar after its been reconstructed, or any continental territory with the possible exception of the Salthar Canal, though Siddarmark may feel differently about extending its borders.
There are many good reasons to let Dohlar be as independent as possible immediately after it turns its coat, and Dohlar will have several good reasons to keep its commitments and improve itself, among them the increasing apparent to all likelihood that the alliance will win this war with the Go4.
Being the leaders of the regency council will be interesting for both of them, NTM I think both will be pleasantly pleased at how mature their relationship is when they meet again, in moving beyond the past antagonisms.
Safehold and the Charisian Empire still depend on the aristocracy, even if its increasingly meritocratic in the EoC.
In that sense, Thirsk and Ahlverez stand as excellent role models for those remaining in Dohlar.
Dohlar has a population of some 97 millions, so the military even with its extended families is still a drop in the bucket, but you're right in that their public reputations will gain them much of the critical public support they'll need.
Delferahk may indeed turn its coat at some future date; and while I love the idea of a note on his pillow, if he's heard what happened to King Gorjah, Delferahk is inconsequential in this war on Haven, and if Howard is entirely cut off from direct contact with Zion, he may have excellent reasons to fear an unbridled Desnar, and seek new allies on his own.
I look forward to many more intriguing and informative posts.
L
SighsHeavily wrote:*quote="lyonheart"*Hi SighsHeavily,
Greetings and welcome to the forums, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.
Dohlar is a kingdom, and demoting it to princedom status will not endear the alliance to the Dohlaran public, whatever the nobility might have agreed to, ie seeing a prince has less authority than a king, making their positions seem more secure.
Making Thirsk king has been suggested before, but given his limited support among the nobility and the powers that be, that seems much too risky for the alliance.
Making him co-regent with Ahlverez seems more acceptable to the Dohlaran public to me.
L*quote*SighsHeavily wrote:...Since most readers respect Thirsk and wished he weren't playing for the wrong team, getting him to defect has long been a fond dream of ours...
Quite. Many of us DO wish Thirsk would stop musing in cathedrals about how bad the team he is playing for is (Midst Toil Etc.) and figure out a way out. However, getting him out of Dohlar would have been an early to mid-game strategy for the EoC in my opinion...and the game is moving on rapidly. Frankly, while it is easy to get bogged in the details when getting the story in agonizing little snippets, Himself is writing a major story arc and the Empire has to hold and control what it acquires by whatever means...and without consuming too much scarce person-power. In the past, this has meant doing practical deals with conquered princes and/or replacing them (a la Zebediah) with reliable parties like General C. However, soon, at least some on this forum speculate, Charis will be in a position to occupy Dohlar Very good. Who then, however, to have as a tributary prince in Dohlar? Just as Prince Hector appointed a local Zebedian noble as "Grand Duke" after conquering that Princedom, the Empire may well wish a Dohlaran prince of their own choosing but less likely to be seen as a foreign interloper by the locals. At that juncture, one may ask: "Who better than the irritatingly competent, honorable, "knows he has no future," and increasingly Zion-sceptical Thirsk?" Thus, in this scenario, no one spirits out Thirsk or his family. At most a team of scout snipers (or similar) is sent on ahead during the confusion of invasion to take out the temple guards/inquisitors watching Thirsk's family. Once they are safe and the Princedom is held the Empire can negotiate with the Earl - they do not even have to defeat his fleet as a fleet with no home port will soon be no fleet at all.
On the above note, one might speculate that one fine day the King of Delferahk may find a letter on his pillow from his loving niece, now married into the Ahrmahk family, suggesting to her Uncle that it is time to get into the boat with the winners and out of the water with the Temple losers. Again, this is in accordance with the type of realpolitik themes already used by the redoubtable Mr. Weber in this series. Now that might be a real blow to the Grand Inquisitor! Thirsk as Prince followed by Delferahk's change of allegiance. After all, how much territory does the EoC take and how many princedoms does it acquire before there is a rush to the exits by the remaining rulers of Safehold? Hmmmm....?
Dear lyonheart:
Old Tilman is fine with me. Thank you for noting that a very long time 'lurker in branches' has emerged and thank you for the greetings. As for "Kingdom" - I ought to have been clearer. NO original title of any subsidiary realm of the Empire has any real meaning...and only two people can be Emperor and Empress of the Empire. That said, the local title is not very relevant in the grand scheme - whether the King of Tarot or the Prince of Emerald or the "Grand Duke" of Zebediah (a former Princedom) all of these lesser rulers are nobles and princes of the Empire, FIRST. Indeed, I point to the fact that the Prince of Emerald was specifically granted a very high precedence status amongst the nobles of the Empire as part of the deal by which Emerald became part of the Empire. It did not matter that Tarot had a King when they joined the Empire etc., Prince Nahrmahn had higher precedence - it was and is the precedence among the Imperial nobility that counts. Furthermore, Machiavelli in Il Principe refers to rulers as "Princes" - to distinguish those who actually rule from others regardless of their actual title (and there were some odd ones in the [not so...] good old days...). I have been unclear and apologize for that but when I refer to a "prince" I mean firstly an actual ruler and secondly, in the instance of Safehold, the ruler of one of the constituent realms of the Empire.
As for a co-rulership in Dohlar post-conquest? These are inevitably messy and impractical ...even when there are no pre-existing personal tensions. The nobility as trouble makers post-conquest? Most of those will flee or have their wings clipped - nor do the few great nobles of a small place such as Dohlar have much in the way of standing levies of their own (actually none in all likelihood). Frankly, the sooner any surviving nobles make trouble the sooner they can be culled by the Empire.
Other than the nobles there are the local equivalent of the gentry, the skilled working classes any small nascent "middle class" and the mobile populace (probably well north of 90% of the population) - we do not know their precise opinions, nor how they really feel about the policies of the Temple - however, Thirsk actually speculates on this very point in Chapter 13 of Midst Toil Etc. and notes both creeping reformism and the possibility of doubt in the general populace as to what is going on. I do note that even conquered populations a la Corisande and in a sense, Zebediah, have been remarkably complacent post-conquest or acquisition. Speculating on precisely how such a populace might react depends on many factors including reformist sentiment, disgust with the Temple, disgust with the current King (who is a profligate among other things) etc. It also depends on what surprises Mr. Weber may be saving for us poor groundlings to be amazed at! Overall, I would suggest that a unitary ruler and one who has gained the love, or at least respect, of many of the populace by a) insisting on pay for his pressed sailors and b) treating his crews well amongst other things might surprise you - especially in a small Kingdom.
To conclude, I never meant to suggest that a successor to King R would be 'demoted' to the status of "Prince" - the Empire, to date, has maintained all pre-existing local titles. What I meant (and did not clarify, alas) in my first post was that all these local rulers whatever their local titles are first and foremost Princes of the Empire.
Again thank you for your greetings, apologies for my lamentable lack of clarity and best wishes to all on these forums who put so much time and effort into attempting to divine the Weberian tea-leaves. Since there are no possible thanks for Mr. Weber for his work that those more eloquent than I have not already expressed over the years I will confine myself to remarking that I join many others - I am sure - in hoping that things go supremely well for Mr. Weber and his family personally.
Petrus
...they also serve who stand and wait...