Optimal Charisian Navy (IMHO)

JeffEngel wrote: Battleships weren't terrorized by little ships with big guns. The little ships needed the hard-to-spot explosives that hit below the waterline to do that.

Really?

http://60-250-180-26.hinet-ip.hinet.net ... 03-003.jpg

Poor mister Rendell - he sold so many of his gunboats, and they actually cannot exist at all!

Possibly this wreck -

http://mvdirona.com/Trips/Australia2014 ... 10.web.jpg

- also fake. Something like that -

https://rslvwm.s3.amazonaws.com/I/units ... _1__1_.jpg

- simply couldn't exist...

P.S. Sorry if i'm too sarcastic. Hard week.

Does a PT boat need to tack? Can it maintain speed despite wind?

If the answers is "no and yes", then that answers your question. Oh, and the top speed of PT boats? Not 15-18 mph depending on the direction the boat is traveling relative to the prevailing wind.

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:My friend you are simply enjoying a pipedream.

Yes, yes, yes, i enjopyed the pipedream, all peoples in XIX century enjoyed the pipedreams...

One question, please - from which pipedream are this ship?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... aven_(1856).jpg

Also, may I just assume that torpedo boats couldn't exist? If the size didn't really matter, after all...

Dilandu wrote:SNIP

And also because the major ports, currently used by Church as raider bases, are simply too shallow for the Kh's to make any real good. And send the KH's to bombard the fisher's villages from the long range (because she wouldn't be able to come closer!)... is just useless.

Just out of curiosity - do we know this for sure?

isaac_newton wrote:

Dilandu wrote:SNIP

And also because the major ports, currently used by Church as raider bases, are simply too shallow for the Kh's to make any real good. And send the KH's to bombard the fisher's villages from the long range (because she wouldn't be able to come closer!)... is just useless.

Just out of curiosity - do we know this for sure?

Nope. We don't. He's probably right about the smaller fishing ports where many of the priviteers are being built. But the major ports like Ithyria, Gorath, Desnair the City, Temple Bay are undoubtedly deep water since they have been major hubs for commerce. Otherwise there is no textev to support Dilandu here.

I don't understand the logic here. The ICN needs to be able to sail into harbors and destroy their forts just like they did against Delfahrahk. They can't do that against forts with modern guns without steel armoured ships. Assuming the ICN arms its ships to withstand the rounds of its own primary weapon, then the KH VIIs can take hits from 10" rifles. It'll take a while for the mainland to build 10" guns.

Yes, they are resource hogs. They are also the best way to defeat harbor defences without taking a tremendous amount of damage. That capability is worth the price.

n7axw wrote:For the church question is resourses no matter how much fantasy Clyntahn might indulge in. They need to get every cannon they can build to Wyrshym, Kaitswryth and the Harchongians because if the Alliance keeps coming, it's going to be all over, probably sooner rather than later.

As for how many Haarahds they can build, six were authorized, down from twelve. It really dosn't matter how optimistic we might or might not be, if RFC decides that six are abuildin, than six it is regardless of how realistic it might seem in real life, six were authorized. I'm sure they have six building slips. What textev we have suggests that they are approaching completion, although I don't suppose that means all at the same time.

This is not a real universe, Dilandu. Safehold is a work of fiction. How realistic it is and how much handwavium all depends on how the author decides to write the story.

Don

An "aviso" is a corvette, more or less...see wikipedia. In 60+ years of reading books on naval warfare, I have never seen the word before, so I have learned something. However: He who could perhaps pretty please give us another snippet has a declared opinion of things that resemble corvettes, as discussed in the Honorverse.

PeterZ wrote:I don't understand the logic here. The ICN needs to be able to sail into harbors and destroy their forts just like they did against Delfahrahk. They can't do that against forts with modern guns without steel armoured ships. Assuming the ICN arms its ships to withstand the rounds of its own primary weapon, then the KH VIIs can take hits from 10" rifles. It'll take a while for the mainland to build 10" guns.

Yes, they are resource hogs. They are also the best way to defeat harbor defences without taking a tremendous amount of damage. That capability is worth the price.

n7axw wrote:For the church question is resourses no matter how much fantasy Clyntahn might indulge in. They need to get every cannon they can build to Wyrshym, Kaitswryth and the Harchongians because if the Alliance keeps coming, it's going to be all over, probably sooner rather than later.

As for how many Haarahds they can build, six were authorized, down from twelve. It really dosn't matter how optimistic we might or might not be, if RFC decides that six are abuildin, than six it is regardless of how realistic it might seem in real life, six were authorized. I'm sure they have six building slips. What textev we have suggests that they are approaching completion, although I don't suppose that means all at the same time.

This is not a real universe, Dilandu. Safehold is a work of fiction. How realistic it is and how much handwavium all depends on how the author decides to write the story.

Don

Hi Peter,

Always good to see your posts...

What we are talking about here really has to do with priorities. Dilandu has asserted, and I more or less agree, that the resourses spent on the KHs would have been better spent on smaller vessels that would help the problem with commerce raider supression and convoy protection. I don't buy into his gunboat proposal, but still, he has a point...

As for the Haarahlds, could it be that there would be more economical ways of accomplishing what the Haarahlds are supposed to do? Maybe installing steam power on the Rotweilers, or armouring the bombardment galleons, or maybe a more modest new design.

However, the story is as it has been written and I, for one, am not going to spend a great deal of time moaning over a "what if..." Like everyone else I am looking forward to what happens when the Haarahlds move into the Gulf of Dohlar and pay an uninvited call on Gorath Bay.

Don

KH have deck plating, which will protect them from plunging fire... also, the KH do not have masts that can be destroyed.

Tell me again what other ship can sail into harbors with the impunity that a KH will give the ICN?

Isilith wrote:KH have deck plating, which will protect them from plunging fire... also, the KH do not have masts that can be destroyed.

Tell me again what other ship can sail into harbors with the impunity that a KH will give the ICN?

None at the moment. But that is not to say that another ship couldn't have been designed to do the same thing, perhaps that would be less elaborate and resource intensive.

It's one of those imponderables that can be argued either way.

Don

I recognize the drive towards efficiency, Don. I don't believe the logic holds in this context. King Haarald recognized that fact and put his life on the line an inefficient yet symbolic way. He died so that Charis could crush their enemies. Not to be cruel or destructive but to assert an idea and punctuate it deep into the psyches of potential enemies: attack Charis and Charis will not just strike back, we will crush you.

That's why these resource hogs are called the King Haarald's. They aren't the most economical hammer Charis can build to attack the mainland. Economical weapons are rarely as intimidating as uneconomical ones. They are the biggest, baddest hammer Charis could build to bring retribution home to its attackers. Crush one port thoroughly enough and others are intimidated into surrendering.

These ships aren't about fighting economically. They are about being so intimidating, the don't need to fight very often. They are the embodiment of the reputation King Haarald died to galvanize.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't understand the logic here. The ICN needs to be able to sail into harbors and destroy their forts just like they did against Delfahrahk. They can't do that against forts with modern guns without steel armoured ships. Assuming the ICN arms its ships to withstand the rounds of its own primary weapon, then the KH VIIs can take hits from 10" rifles. It'll take a while for the mainland to build 10" guns.

Yes, they are resource hogs. They are also the best way to defeat harbor defences without taking a tremendous amount of damage. That capability is worth the price.

Hi Peter,

Always good to see your posts...

What we are talking about here really has to do with priorities. Dilandu has asserted, and I more or less agree, that the resourses spent on the KHs would have been better spent on smaller vessels that would help the problem with commerce raider supression and convoy protection. I don't buy into his gunboat proposal, but still, he has a point...

As for the Haarahlds, could it be that there would be more economical ways of accomplishing what the Haarahlds are supposed to do? Maybe installing steam power on the Rotweilers, or armouring the bombardment galleons, or maybe a more modest new design.

However, the story is as it has been written and I, for one, am not going to spend a great deal of time moaning over a "what if..." Like everyone else I am looking forward to what happens when the Haarahlds move into the Gulf of Dohlar and pay an uninvited call on Gorath Bay.

Don