The dark side of the good guys

aurabass wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Merlin's body (PICA) is built with the same Terran Federation technology as the SNARCs, so the problems that prevent him using the SNARCs prevents him from going in person -- or even going into areas of Zion close to the Temple. A point the Merlin has pondered in nearly every book.

Actually Merlin does not know what technology triggers the bombardment platforms - he/she speculates and tests the limits as was done with the steam engines.

Well yes. But without PICA's to spare on suicidal test runs, that's not a test Merlin can run. He's managed to operate in Zion, not particularly near the Temple itself, under careful circumstances, so there's been that much of a test. But that's a far cry from walking in.

The real question is what becomes the target if a technology is a trigger? That question has been on my mind since early in the series. Say the entity or technology that triggers the bombardment platform is activated by a SNARK or can somehow ascertain the presence of a molycirc (sic?) brain inside a PICA -then what becomes the target? It seems most likely that the technology that drives the PICA is not unlike the technology that drives the AI that controls the bombardment platforms. It has to be similar - a version of a computer or artificial intelligence. So if such a technology shows up inside the Temple how can the AI inside the Temple use the bombardment platforms to destroy it? -

It would not. But why assume that the bombardment system is the only active defense the Temple has? It's built like a planetary defense bunker. One of those could certainly have systems to detect and eliminate - or disable to capture - identifiable automated systems that aren't identified as friendly, such as recon drones (large or tiny) or PICA's. Merlin can test that by walking in, but that's the only way to test for how it may react to PICA's specifically and the potential costs are kinda high.

It seems that this is something that will eventually be risked since I can't see any way that anyone besides Merlin could get into the Temple under croft to access the AI and attempt to turn it off. I don't think there is anyone yet revealed inside the COGA who is in control of the bombardment platform control AI. So if Safehold is going to break the ban on technological advancement in order to confront the Gababa someone is going to have to defeat the bombardment control AI and that entity will likely have to be Nimue -since no one else on Safehold has the remotest idea what an AI is or how to hack it.

There's a Key to bring up at least one system or entity under there. It may have control over the OBS. And humans can carry that in and interface with it as designed. For that matter, if it does take hacking, teaching someone isn't impossible. And in any case, we can't hold Merlin to standards of behavior that assume he knows that he's a character in a book that, by narrative rules, has to have a certain ending which demands that he be able safely to walk in and start knifing bad people and/or hack bad computers.

aurabass wrote:...Say the entity or technology that triggers the bombardment platform is activated by a SNARK or can somehow ascertain the presence of a molycirc (sic?) brain inside a PICA -then what becomes the target? It seems most likely that the technology that drives the PICA is not unlike the technology that drives the AI that controls the bombardment platforms. ...

Merlin's PICA is civilian tech, not as well shielded as the military tech he has available, like SNARCs and flitters. Its molycirc brain is probably the least detectible system it has. The fusion reactor that powers it (IIRC) would be far more likely to trigger a defensive reaction of some sort than the molycirc brain.

According to the Safehold Wiki

The orbiting kinetic bombardment system, aka bombardment platform, or the orbital array, was designed by Eric Langhorne. Merlin believes it was designed to detect and react to indicators of advanced technology. Native Safeholdians refer to it as the "Rakurai," or "Langhorne's Rakurai."

It was designed and built in secret in orbit around Safehold, by order order of Eric Langhorne without the knowledge of Pei Shan-wei

The array was used to annihilate the Alexandria Enclave and much of the surrounding continent, killing Dr. Pei, her supporters, and nearly every colonist who had come into contact with them. This was possible because Pei and her supporters were isolated in a single location where Langhorn could direct the platform to attack a place - not a person or a technology.

SNARKS or MERLIN her/himself pose an entirely different problem if the SNARKS are detected inside the TEMPLE. Langhorn could not possibly concoct an AI that would automatically attack a technology unless that technology was identified in a specific location that could be targeted. SNARKS and Merlin are mobile and in the case of SNARKS widely distributed so taking out Alexandria Enclave is relatively simple proposition compared to taking out SNARKS (particularly if the SNARKS are inside the Temple where the AI doing the targeting exists.)

Langhorn is no longer around to program the "Rakurai" so there is a risk that the AI will attack itself - not a bad outcome in TRUTH - and that may be what happens.

Merlin Athrawes conducted a test early in the Year of God 895 at the Castaway Islands, by using EW emmitters to simulate steam engines in use. These tests did not trigger the bombardment platforms, convincing him that it was safe to proceed with the introduction of steam engines.

So it is impossible for OWL or Merlin to know what Langhorn set as the triggers for the Rakurai and given how paranoid and nuts that megalomania probably was it's not that difficult to imagine a mind that would have the bombardment destroy a large portion of the plant - but the AI has not yet detected Merlin or the SNARKS outside of the TEMPLE.

So i guess the question that must be answered is what will the AI attack if it detects the technology in the space over it's own location. Unless Langhorn still exists in his own PICA in storage beneath the Temple waiting to be awakened under certain conditions. If that happens one would suspect he might have access to his own SNARKS and whatever they might have observed in his absence.

Eventually the AI or a Langhorn PICA or whatever controls the bombardment platforms will have to be confronted and destroyed.

Weird Harold wrote:

aurabass wrote:...Say the entity or technology that triggers the bombardment platform is activated by a SNARK or can somehow ascertain the presence of a molycirc (sic?) brain inside a PICA -then what becomes the target? It seems most likely that the technology that drives the PICA is not unlike the technology that drives the AI that controls the bombardment platforms. ...

Merlin's PICA is civilian tech, not as well shielded as the military tech he has available, like SNARCs and flitters. Its molycirc brain is probably the least detectible system it has. The fusion reactor that powers it (IIRC) would be far more likely to trigger a defensive reaction of some sort than the molycirc brain.

Exactly. Somewhere Merlin specifically mentions not wanting to bring his power plant within range of Temple sensors.

Hypersensitive much? I didn't make the comment to insult you, just your long rant ignored what Merlin has said in every... single... book.

Merlin can't go the temple, he can't go near it, he can't put snarcs in it... all because he is afraid of the OBS triggers. More importantly, he is afraid of the power sources under the temple... he is afraid of waking up whatever is under the temple.

Every book, literally, has covered this in one form or another.

So, no, he can't sneak into the temple and kill the GO4.

As to your "it wouldn't be bad" comment on snarcs in the temple triggering the OBS. Merlin has had the ability to nuke Zion from day one... and says he can't do it. So, yeah, it would be bad to trigger the rakuri to strike the temple. A million plus people would die.

Isilith wrote:Hypersensitive much? I didn't make the comment to insult you, just your long rant ignored what Merlin has said in every... single... book.

Merlin can't go the temple, he can't go near it, he can't put snarcs in it... all because he is afraid of the OBS triggers. More importantly, he is afraid of the power sources under the temple... he is afraid of waking up whatever is under the temple.

Every book, literally, has covered this in one form or another.

So, no, he can't sneak into the temple and kill the GO4.

As to your "it wouldn't be bad" comment on snarcs in the temple triggering the OBS. Merlin has had the ability to nuke Zion from day one... and says he can't do it. So, yeah, it would be bad to trigger the rakuri to strike the temple. A million plus people would die.

Then there is the possibility of the automated defenses in the Temple detecting and slagging one unfortunate PICA...

Don

n7axw wrote:

Isilith wrote:Hypersensitive much? I didn't make the comment to insult you, just your long rant ignored what Merlin has said in every... single... book.

Merlin can't go the temple, he can't go near it, he can't put snarcs in it... all because he is afraid of the OBS triggers. More importantly, he is afraid of the power sources under the temple... he is afraid of waking up whatever is under the temple.

Every book, literally, has covered this in one form or another.

So, no, he can't sneak into the temple and kill the GO4.

As to your "it wouldn't be bad" comment on snarcs in the temple triggering the OBS. Merlin has had the ability to nuke Zion from day one... and says he can't do it. So, yeah, it would be bad to trigger the rakuri to strike the temple. A million plus people would die.

Then there is the possibility of the automated defenses in the Temple detecting and slagging one unfortunate PICA...

Don

or worse, waking up, looking around, seeing what those heretical Charisians are doing and bombarding the entire island,

aurabass wrote:SNARKS or MERLIN her/himself pose an entirely different problem if the SNARKS are detected inside the TEMPLE. Langhorn could not possibly concoct an AI that would automatically attack a technology unless that technology was identified in a specific location that could be targeted. SNARKS and Merlin are mobile and in the case of SNARKS widely distributed so taking out Alexandria Enclave is relatively simple proposition compared to taking out SNARKS (particularly if the SNARKS are inside the Temple where the AI doing the targeting exists.)

Merlin is not afraid of the Rakurai detecting him and blasting him. The Rakurai has nothing to do with why Merlin is afraid of the Temple. The reason Merlin does not go near the Temple is that he is afraid that the Temple will detect him and do something. He knows the Temple has some kind of big power source under it, he knows that there is high technology inside the Temple, he knows that the Archangels will return. It is quite likely that there are sensors around the Temple. The SNARCs are far more stealthy than his own PICA body; if he thinks that the Temple sensors can detect a SNARC, then he can be fairly certain that the Temple sensors can detect him. He cannot and will not risk waking anything (technological or biological) inside the Temple at this time. It would completely destroy his plans. He will not send SNARCs or himself anywhere near the Temple sensors.

The reason someone asked whether you had read the books is because Merlin muses about this several times in the books and goes through all his reasons for not going near the Temple. It is very clearly stated.

Whether that changes in the future, we will see. But for now, David Weber has explained the current situation repeatedly.

SWM wrote:

aurabass wrote:SNARKS or MERLIN her/himself pose an entirely different problem if the SNARKS are detected inside the TEMPLE. Langhorn could not possibly concoct an AI that would automatically attack a technology unless that technology was identified in a specific location that could be targeted. SNARKS and Merlin are mobile and in the case of SNARKS widely distributed so taking out Alexandria Enclave is relatively simple proposition compared to taking out SNARKS (particularly if the SNARKS are inside the Temple where the AI doing the targeting exists.)

Merlin is not afraid of the Rakurai detecting him and blasting him. The Rakurai has nothing to do with why Merlin is afraid of the Temple. The reason Merlin does not go near the Temple is that he is afraid that the Temple will detect him and do something. He knows the Temple has some kind of big power source under it, he knows that there is high technology inside the Temple, he knows that the Archangels will return. It is quite likely that there are sensors around the Temple. The SNARCs are far more stealthy than his own PICA body; if he thinks that the Temple sensors can detect a SNARC, then he can be fairly certain that the Temple sensors can detect him. He cannot and will not risk waking anything (technological or biological) inside the Temple at this time. It would completely destroy his plans. He will not send SNARCs or himself anywhere near the Temple sensors.

The reason someone asked whether you had read the books is because Merlin muses about this several times in the books and goes through all his reasons for not going near the Temple. It is very clearly stated.

Whether that changes in the future, we will see. But for now, David Weber has explained the current situation repeatedly.

Exactly, thank you.

To refine what has already been said, the internal defenses are different than the Rakurai. Visualize something designed to detect and destroy TF tech as in entered the Temple. My own visualization of this would have it automated, maybe comnnected to what's in the basement, but maybe not. We don't really know if such a defensive system exists, but it seems a reasonable assumption given the paranoia that must have followed Kauyung's vest pocket nuke.

That is what Merlin would be risking to enter the Temple.

Don