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New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all between)

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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:30 am

lyonheart
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Hi ChrisD,

I couldn't find any reference to Dr. Porche's C-train.

Do you have some sites or pictures available?

L


chrisd wrote:*quote="Lazalarlives"*Truthfully? I'd love to see steam tractors on treads with likewise equipped wagons. Low ground pressure keeps them from stalling and they only have to go about 8-10 kph. Think all-terrain trains of a sort. They'll also transition nicely to civilian life as tractors.

Add in steel plows and modern-style brush hog assemblies made possible because of steel blades and the already-capable farms can creep closer to their (current) modern equivalents.

After the aforementioned howitzers, of course.

Dave*quote*

Or a steam version of Dr. Porsche's "C-train" artillery tractors.


Or a steam version of Dr. Porsche's C-train?
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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:40 am

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Hi Don,

Kudos for the several excellent points.

Machine guns won't be effective in this war even if a few are used, precisely because they'll be far too few.

Until the production bottlenecks are eliminated, I also agree the alliance has enough on its plate, production wise.

Larger [30 round] magazines for the M96 while possible are a strain as others have posted.

The British BREN gun for example had a 30 round magazine but only 28 could be loaded without jamming, so they went into your pocket until you could top off the magazine, yet the British considered the BREN gun to be 'extremely reliable' for decades.

Sometimes, its all what you get used to. ;)

L


n7axw wrote:Just for the sake of review, let's look at what the allies have already got: long range angle guns, shorter but portable angles, various types of mines, hand grenades, revolvers with 6 round cylinders, rifles with 10 round magazines, rifled cannon. Breaking over the horizon, but not quite available for use is smokeless powder. Also count steam for the Haarahlds, the riverclads and the cities.

Now think of the difficulties: industrial plant is still too small. They are having difficulty producing enough rifles to comletely equip the armies they have raised. Navy needs more hulls to cope with piracy threat and demand for steam engines far out strips the supply. And while back there was a thread wondering if enough ammumition was going to be available rifles and no one was going to convincingly argue that it would.

The point to all of this is that I think you guys are really talking about weapons for the next war. Poor old Howsmyn needs to allow his assembly lines settle in to produce what is already on tap along with expanding his capacity to the point where he can comfortably produce what it needed in adequate quantity. Continually having to accommodate new ideas works against that.

One thing they might manage without a lot of disruption would be larger magazines for the M96. Why not a 30 round clip rather than a 10? It seems to me that it could be designed to fit in the same hole in the bottom of the rifle without any change in the design of the rifle itself...

Don
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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:59 am

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Hi Weird Harold,

While a LMG or SAW would be great, I think we'll have to wait awhile before we get a Lewis or Bren gun etc, though who knows, Master Mahldyn may already be thinking about something similar. ;)

We have yet to see the ICA offensive tactics on a large scale, which in part require the higher RoF of the new recoil howitzers, NTM denote an amazing amount of excellent training and drill despite not having the weapons in hand.

Given the rapidity and flexibility of the ICA, it may have already outmaneuvered and flanked whoever before the CoGA force is half way getting into its battle formations.

If the CoGA scouts are halfway decent, they might report the dreadful news just in time to cause too late attempts to adjust which in turn only panic the ignorant soldiers who don't know what's happening except confusion and chaos, that has made their initial orders moot if not suicidal, all still without fighting a full fledged open field battle, which is already lost.

RFC warned us through Merlin that the tactical 'corps' tactic of the ICA was going to be even worse than the lessons it had already taught.

NTM, I suspect the best AoG division CO's not to be in any position to pass along their personal insights of just how wide the tactical gap is, let alone the firepower.

L


Weird Harold wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:I imagine that sort of tactical need may be covered by multiple systems.

Are rifles with magazines or a revolver mechanism near-future weapons for them? How about shotguns?


I'm sure that there will be multiple weapons systems over a wide range of options, I just don't see belt-fed heavy machine guns in the Maxim or Gatling styles as fitting the ICA's demonstrated preference for mobile tactics.

The ICA is already fielding a (detachable) magazine-fed bolt-action battle rifle. Adapting a BAR clone to use the same magazines as the standard issue battle-rifle wouldn't be all that difficult.

Revolver rifles didn't prove to be durable enough to be reliable, hence the move to lever-action and bolt-action battle rifles. Revolver cannon and rotating cannon/heavy caliber multi-barrel rifles were more successful but required crew-service and artillery carriages, limbers and caissons;

JeffEngel wrote:And is there maybe some room for something on the edge between a crew served infantry weapon and the very lightest of field artillery?


Of course there is; that's the role Gatlings, Hotchiss, "Mountain Guns," and heavy machine guns -- like the Browning MA-2 "Ma Duece" -- filled. For the most part, those guns are considered light artillery and require team-work and constant drill to be effective.

JeffEngel wrote:The mortars are made for fairly quick assembly and disassembly, transport, and operation by small crews. Could they build to a similar design something like a Maxim gun - perhaps with the addition of a bipod with an axle and wheels for dragging around assembled, in a hurry or on level ground?


JOAT provided a good video of what is possible with light or medium artillery. There are several others -- including this 23-minute WWII training film -- that show how heavy machine guns are moved around and employed. (NB: in WWII heavy machine guns were used to suppress enemy heavy machine guns and as light anti-aircraft guns. Charis doesn't have that problem. Yet.)

Modern -- Vietnam and later -- tactics rely on SAW (Squad Automatic Weapons) and select fire assault rifles rather than cumbersome heavy machine gun support.
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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:08 am

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Hi MWadwell,

This technique of strategic offensive and tactical defensive has come up a few times in the past. ;)

While there's much to recommend it, the range and responsiveness of ICA artillery enable the ICA to do more than simply wait on the tactical defensive, where they still might be flanked, especially against a foe so huge and awkward as the MHoG; such as keeping the van ignorant of where the ICA really is, attacking the main or rear before they realise the battle has come to them many miles from where it's 'supposed to' and they're still unready on the road etc.

L


MWadwell wrote:*quote="Weird Harold"*[quote="WeberFan"]Given that the Temple forces will likely attack in large numbers with significant breech-loading, rifled muskets soon, Charis needs a way to push vast amounts of fire downrange at close ranges. Can you even imagine the Temple forces encountering interlocking, final-protective-fires from machine guns? The shock and morale-disrupting effect would be staggering methinks...*quote*

The only problem with the Maxim is that it is a crew-served "heavy" weapon -- heavy both in terms of fire-power and in terms of literal weight. It is best suited to defensive works and trench warfare; it is NOT suited to the offensive needs of the ICA and RSA.

The ICA needs something mobile and and "personal" -- ie not requiring a crew or fixed position to be effective. Something with the fire-power of a "trench broom" and close to the range of a battle rifle but light and magazine fed so it doesn't slow down an assault...


A couple of points:

1) The WWI, crew served vickers/maxim MG's were actually more mobile then you'd think, with them being able to be fired from the hip.
2) With the Church catching up with the weapon technology, it's going to come down to speed of movement, rather then sheer firepower. So I would think that the ICA is going to push for better (i.e. faster and more reliable) communications that can work in all types of weather.
3) With the increasing lethality of the weapons, defenses (i.e. trenches) are going to gain in importance - so the key point is going to be to attack strategically, and defend tactically. I.e. using speed to take a position (see Point 2 above) and quickly fortify it, and then force the Church to attack the entrenched ICA.[/quote]
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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:24 am

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lyonheart wrote:While a LMG or SAW would be great, I think we'll have to wait awhile before we get a Lewis or Bren gun etc, though who knows, Master Mahldyn may already be thinking about something similar. ;)


I have no doubt that a SAW is unlikely as a first step in automatic weapons, a BAR or AK derivative is well within EoC capabilities now -- excepting smokeless powder. I haven't seen any hints anyone is thinking in the direction of even semi-automatics yet, though. It will be the next war that sees "automatic" weapons of any stripe.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all betw
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:47 am

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Hi Mwadwell,

Excellent points.

We should expect Howsmyn to expand his powered assembly lines to his other critical products, including steam engines over the next year, with the multiplier effect spreading through the empire over the next year.

Apparently by June if not May all 11 M96 production lines are expected to be up producing something around 250-300,000 for the year, while adding another 450,000+ next year barring any industrial accident, though the dispersal should greatly mitigate that, for some 750,000 by the end of 898, enough to give some 250,000 to the RSA.

Remembering the Kaiser's exclamation about the 'old contemptible's' all "having machine guns" because they trained to meet such a high standard, the ICA's need for MG's in this war may indeed be moot.

L


MWadwell wrote:
n7axw wrote:Actually, while Charis is still struggling to get its steel capacity up so that they have enough to manufacture rifles, cannon and iron clads, I doubt that such things as razor wire will be a very strong priority. They are increasing their industrial base, but as of the end of LAMA, things were still bottlenecked.

That being ssid, I think you have s good idea.

Don


I think that the biggest bottleneck is not the smelting of steel, or the construction of weapons.

The biggest restriction is manpower.

And so (to me) the best "New Device of War", is actually something that will increase manufacturing.


Smaller, more reliable steam engines. Engines able to be mounted in (initially) middle-sized factories (and finally, in small factories) - enabling the use of powered tools.

That would have the effect of releasing a relatively large manpower pool - that can then be used to either further expand the manufacturing sector, or go into the army/navy.


That is going to be the best "weapon" to develop.... ;)
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