Steam

I would say that Merlin and Howsman(sp?) will bring out a pretty simple steam engine to start with. As he (the Iron manufacture) will only be useing it in-side the factory and possibly at the mines to start with. If I remember right, he did say that he will wait a while to see if anyone else gets the idea to use it out-side of the factory. And if no one did, then he would get another idea for the railroad.

Do we know if the Doctor has published the works on the theories of gravity and and possibly the begainings of thermal dymamics?

Also not related to steam but other scientific theories might help to get people to thinking forwards and how things will work.

walt wrote:
I know that Merlin wants to teach Charis to think for itself, but it seems to me that things are a bit too serious for that in the pure sense.

Also, the Crown Princess is young enough for just about anything(!), so I would give her the NEAT asap. Also, it might be a good idea to rescue as many infant orphans as could be handled and give them implants as well.

We know, from the medical nanites Merlin has injected into members of the Inner Circle and the prenatal workup given the Empress, that some advanced medical technology exists in the cave. It is not clear if the limited facilities in the cave could manufacture the implants and successfully place them into the heads of a infant or young child. Even if Merlin and OWL could make the implants, would you risk the Empire's heir (and the daughter of close friends) to a experimental medical procedure? Certainly Merlin hasn't surgically implanted a NEAT previously. How many implants could be constructed and verified from materials at hand without depleting critical resources? What would you need to make to then make or refine the critical resources?

Alistair wrote:

MGP wrote:Just a thought, but, mechanically, diesel engines are not that much different from steam engines. Reciprocating pistons, compression and rotation. The major difference is combustion outside of the engine in the case of steam, as opposed to internal combustion caused by compression in the case of diesel.

I certainly think it might be possible to build a steam driven armoued vechile/tank without violating the prescriptions.

(At least possible with Charis' Intendent!)

As mentioned before in other threads, a steam powered tank is absolutely suicidally insane. The problem is in the power source itself.

1st problem. Fuel. Steam is very fuel inefficient. In order to get a usable operating radius, they would have to tote a *lot* of coal to power the engine. And thats not counting water. Remember: In those pics of steam engines we all grew up seeing, those tenders was designed to give only 150 miles of range under load - tops. Usually only a hundred.

2nd problem. Steam itself. On a battlefield there is tonnes of metal bits flying about. Should one of those metal bits - be it one fired from a cannon to a bolt getting spalled off from the inside of the tank itself - puncture a line, or the pressure cylinder, or any other live steam source you'll have superheated steam exploding out into a confined metal box... Lobster anyone?

3rd problem. Speaking of lobster... You'll have plenty of servings! In addition to the crew needed to serve the gun(s) and direct the movements of the machine as well as drive it, you'll need a sizeable crew just to feed the engine. At least an engineer, and at least one fireman, and probably 2.


3 strikes, and the steam powered armoured fighting machine is out alas.

Hi Panther Al,

I would never want to throw down a gauntlet to RFC, he just might surprise you.

Since oil is available, a little refining while steam engines are further developed could produce something more practical than you suggest, especially given a poor development program by the church or the Harchong for armor piercing weapons, if as seems likely the Go4 collapse sooner than steam power appears.

How long after steam traction engines etc go into widespread use with the ICA logistics, do you think it will be before someone suggests armoring some?

Did you know Abner Doble was ordered to develop a 1000 hp steam engine for American tanks in WW2, which since it didn't require a transmission would provided twice the power an ICE of similar power could have delivered to the tracks, and the main reason Detroit opposed it was that they didn't GI's coming home wanting to drive a steam powered car.

The June 1976 issue of the Armed Forces Journal had a cover article discussing the potential of the WW2 Doble steam powered tank expressed the above sentiment, and there still supporters of the steam car, including its multifuel advantages, which SF writer Christopher Anvil played up, as well as John W. Campbell in his role as editor of Analog SF&F magazine.

L

Panther Al wrote:

Alistair wrote:

MGP wrote:Just a thought, but, mechanically, diesel engines are not that much different from steam engines. Reciprocating pistons, compression and rotation. The major difference is combustion outside of the engine in the case of steam, as opposed to internal combustion caused by compression in the case of diesel.

I certainly think it might be possible to build a steam driven armoued vechile/tank without violating the prescriptions.

(At least possible with Charis' Intendent!)

As mentioned before in other threads, a steam powered tank is absolutely suicidally insane. The problem is in the power source itself.

1st problem. Fuel. Steam is very fuel inefficient. In order to get a usable operating radius, they would have to tote a *lot* of coal to power the engine. And thats not counting water. Remember: In those pics of steam engines we all grew up seeing, those tenders was designed to give only 150 miles of range under load - tops. Usually only a hundred.

2nd problem. Steam itself. On a battlefield there is tonnes of metal bits flying about. Should one of those metal bits - be it one fired from a cannon to a bolt getting spalled off from the inside of the tank itself - puncture a line, or the pressure cylinder, or any other live steam source you'll have superheated steam exploding out into a confined metal box... Lobster anyone?

3rd problem. Speaking of lobster... You'll have plenty of servings! In addition to the crew needed to serve the gun(s) and direct the movements of the machine as well as drive it, you'll need a sizeable crew just to feed the engine. At least an engineer, and at least one fireman, and probably 2.


3 strikes, and the steam powered armoured fighting machine is out alas.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Panther Al,

I would never want to throw down a gauntlet to RFC, he just might surprise you.

Since oil is available, a little refining while steam engines are further developed could produce something more practical than you suggest, especially given a poor development program by the church or the Harchong for armor piercing weapons, if as seems likely the Go4 collapse sooner than steam power appears.

How long after steam traction engines etc go into widespread use with the ICA logistics, do you think it will be before someone suggests armoring some?

Did you know Abner Doble was ordered to develop a 1000 hp steam engine for American tanks in WW2, which since it didn't require a transmission would provided twice the power an ICE of similar power could have delivered to the tracks, and the main reason Detroit opposed it was that they didn't GI's coming home wanting to drive a steam powered car.

The June 1976 issue of the Armed Forces Journal had a cover article discussing the potential of the WW2 Doble steam powered tank expressed the above sentiment, and there still supporters of the steam car, including its multifuel advantages, which SF writer Christopher Anvil played up, as well as John W. Campbell in his role as editor of Analog SF&F magazine.

L

Throwing down the gauntlet is always perilous when faced with an author that has a closet full of red shirts and 10 times the wit is rather dangerous, but in this case, speaking as a former Tanker, and a Steam Buff - railroad and otherwise (Admittedly, far from an expert in steam)...


*clang*


Steam is perfect for large vessels, and for items that won't see the battlefield. On the farm, or better yet, on the rails, steam is reliable, and safe. Its reliable and safe in iron-clad ships because when you get down to it, the steam plant is in the safest spot, and a fairly small target inside of it (Not to mention contained to the engine rooms - sucks to working them true, but the rest of the ship is more or less fine). But the smaller the item, and lets face it, steam powered land forts are out, and tanks by the very nature are better off smaller, not larger. At this point, you need a large power plant to move the armoured box, at any speed what so ever. You could go smaller, and easier to feed and serve - but then you are getting into high pressures, which makes all the above even worse. On a battlefield, what can go wrong mechanically, will. Add in the chaos of combat, either self generated by the crews, or created by the other side, steam explosions are gonna happen - and once people see the first victims of a steam loss inside a confined space, good luck convincing them to get back in!

Hi Panther Al,

Steam would be cumbersome and dangerous as you've pointed out and from discussions with an EOD expert regarding tank ammunition accidents, cooked burned tank crew-members are pretty gruesome.

The armor required could be fairly little initially.

If the water tank were built as a long narrow pipe, and used as a sort of secondary armor liner, with the boiler is low between the tracks or high wheels; the chance of a boiler explosion could be reduced considerably.

My comments are intended towards the likelihood of some kind of steam AFV being developed after steam engines prove themselves.

L

Panther Al wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Panther Al,

I would never want to throw down a gauntlet to RFC, he just might surprise you.

Since oil is available, a little refining while steam engines are further developed could produce something more practical than you suggest, especially given a poor development program by the church or the Harchong for armor piercing weapons, if as seems likely the Go4 collapse sooner than steam power appears.

How long after steam traction engines etc go into widespread use with the ICA logistics, do you think it will be before someone suggests armoring some?

Did you know Abner Doble was ordered to develop a 1000 hp steam engine for American tanks in WW2, which since it didn't require a transmission would provided twice the power an ICE of similar power could have delivered to the tracks, and the main reason Detroit opposed it was that they didn't GI's coming home wanting to drive a steam powered car.

The June 1976 issue of the Armed Forces Journal had a cover article discussing the potential of the WW2 Doble steam powered tank expressed the above sentiment, and there still supporters of the steam car, including its multifuel advantages, which SF writer Christopher Anvil played up, as well as John W. Campbell in his role as editor of Analog SF&F magazine.

L

Throwing down the gauntlet is always perilous when faced with an author that has a closet full of red shirts and 10 times the wit is rather dangerous, but in this case, speaking as a former Tanker, and a Steam Buff - railroad and otherwise (Admittedly, far from an expert in steam)...


*clang*


Steam is perfect for large vessels, and for items that won't see the battlefield. On the farm, or better yet, on the rails, steam is reliable, and safe. Its reliable and safe in iron-clad ships because when you get down to it, the steam plant is in the safest spot, and a fairly small target inside of it (Not to mention contained to the engine rooms - sucks to working them true, but the rest of the ship is more or less fine). But the smaller the item, and lets face it, steam powered land forts are out, and tanks by the very nature are better off smaller, not larger. At this point, you need a large power plant to move the armoured box, at any speed what so ever. You could go smaller, and easier to feed and serve - but then you are getting into high pressures, which makes all the above even worse. On a battlefield, what can go wrong mechanically, will. Add in the chaos of combat, either self generated by the crews, or created by the other side, steam explosions are gonna happen - and once people see the first victims of a steam loss inside a confined space, good luck convincing them to get back in!

And us professional tankers know it well how nasty it can be - everyone knows someone that got burned by either a fuel fire (The heater in the M1 is right by the drivers left side face) due to the fact that the heaters fuel lines leak all the time... or blasted by the halon discharger (Right by the driver's right side of his face). Of course, easy to get out of the drivers hole (Which, by the way, is between two fuel tanks) if it breaks out in fire - unless you got your night vision installed, in which case...


Sucks to be you.


And then you have the ammo: whole bunch of highly flammable propellents encased in a thin - and highly flammable - cardboard tube. Usually breaks - when it breaks - after you have already fired once or thrice, and have a few very hot aft caps in the bin.

Yeah. Tankers know fire.

IF (and its a Big if) steam trains are available in charis before they invade the mainland I can see someone pointing out that if it can haul 100 tonnes of iron around a track it could haul 20/30 tonnes of armour/weapons around a battlefield.

I think the main obstical for this will be the CoGA technology at the time, if they are still using Napoleonic style cannon and muskets I think it would be a lot more likely that Charis would get away with it.

If however they have advanced to breach loading cannons and explosive shells I think someone (Merlin) would pop in to point out the disadvantages pointed out above.

I can however see charisian long range artillery using steam powered tractors

Of course this will all depend on charis developing large scale Steel production in the next 5-10 years

Hi Emo Otaku,

We have RFC stating Housemyn is about to at least triple his steel production with 2-3 new foundries, including one near Tellesberg.

So steel may soon no longer be the bottleneck its been in the past.

Regarding how much armor the suggested AFV's need, you're quite right whether the CoGA are still using Napoleonic muzzle loaders not high explosive breech loaders etc.
Granted the penetration a 12 pounder Napoleon at close range would probably make the amount of armor moot, but I think that's going to be a rare situation.

Given the the reaction of horses who've never seen or heard a steam engine before, I doubt the cavalry will be able to respond very well, while the infantry would find an armored all terrain vehicle attacking them quite intimidating without artillery support ruined from the angle guns, mortars, and breech loader cannon with their faster rates of fire.

L


[quote="Emo Otaku"][b]IF [/b](and its a Big if) steam trains are available in charis before they invade the mainland I can see someone pointing out that if it can haul 100 tonnes of iron around a track it could haul 20/30 tonnes of armour/weapons around a battlefield.

I think the main obstical for this will be the CoGA technology at the time, if they are still using Napoleonic style cannon and muskets I think it would be a lot more likely that Charis would get away with it.

If however they have advanced to breach loading cannons and explosive shells I think someone (Merlin) would pop in to point out the disadvantages pointed out above.

I can however see charisian long range artillery using steam powered tractors

Of course this will all depend on charis developing large scale Steel production in the next 5-10 years[/quote]

Emo Otaku wrote:IF (and its a Big if) steam trains are available in charis before they invade the mainland I can see someone pointing out that if it can haul 100 tonnes of iron around a track it could haul 20/30 tonnes of armour/weapons around a battlefield.

I think the main obstical for this will be the CoGA technology at the time, if they are still using Napoleonic style cannon and muskets I think it would be a lot more likely that Charis would get away with it.

If however they have advanced to breach loading cannons and explosive shells I think someone (Merlin) would pop in to point out the disadvantages pointed out above.

I can however see charisian long range artillery using steam powered tractors

Of course this will all depend on charis developing large scale Steel production in the next 5-10 years

Now, here is where I see steam being used on the battlefield: Tractors. Either hauling supplies or larger guns.