Synopsis for At the Sign of Triumph

HamsterDesTodes wrote:The decision doesnt have to be made for positive reasons. A nice and friendly personality works best of course, but "Nobody is allowed to abuse power but myself" could be a decent starting point as well, followed by a cost/benefit analysis of CoGA vs CoC reputation where Charis should win handily.
Also keep in mind that as long as whatever is below the temple got even partial access to recent (as in: last couple of centuries or somesuch) activities inside the temple, there can be no question that nobody in the temple is actually a believer, whereas a short observation of Maikel will show a deeply religious personality. Just as long as he doesnt know what exactly Maikel believes in (or better: doesnt believe in) the decision who's the more trustworthy would be easy.
Worked during the last war, didnt it? You know, the one that was won last week before I went to sleep.

Now, the seijin stories may be a n unsurpassable hurdle, unless the thing writes them off as exactly that: stories.

On the flip side, any cursory examination of Charis is going to show a HEAVY outside influence. Rapid tech progression is (barely) plausible. The complete and exact reinvention of Arabian numerals right down to the exact NAME for them (not to mention all the other Old Earth terminology) is not.

And any direct examination of the Charisian leadership is likely to reveal their using Fed Tech wireless comms. Merlin has a damn good reason to never let himself or any of his remotes within five miles of the Temple.

how did gunpowder get reinvented with the name gunpowder?

that was way before merlin awoke, yet it carries the same name as its earth predecessor.

at least some of merlin's things are getting new names.

Shan wei'd candles for matches
shan wei's foot stools for landmines
lewiscyte for dynamite

also muskets, rifles and some other things. ships and swords were in use from day 1 likely, so those get a pass but there are several inventions carrying their earth name that were not invented by merlin or his associates.

HamsterDesTodes wrote:The decision doesnt have to be made for positive reasons. A nice and friendly personality works best of course, but "Nobody is allowed to abuse power but myself" could be a decent starting point as well, followed by a cost/benefit analysis of CoGA vs CoC reputation where Charis should win handily.
Also keep in mind that as long as whatever is below the temple got even partial access to recent (as in: last couple of centuries or somesuch) activities inside the temple, there can be no question that nobody in the temple is actually a believer, whereas a short observation of Maikel will show a deeply religious personality. Just as long as he doesnt know what exactly Maikel believes in (or better: doesnt believe in) the decision who's the more trustworthy would be easy.
Worked during the last war, didnt it? You know, the one that was won last week before I went to sleep.

Now, the seijin stories may be a n unsurpassable hurdle, unless the thing writes them off as exactly that: stories.

No returning angel would ever support Charis over the Temple no matter how egregious its behavior might be or how badly they're losing the war. To support Charis would be to acknowledge and legitimize a right to breakaway from a centralized Mother Church. And that'd never fly, because it would undermine the key safeguard built into Langhorne's plans to prevent native tech from developing.

Personal piety didn't matter when the command staff set themselves up as gods; why would it matter now? An angel can intervene to help the Temple *and* reject the Temple's actions. It'd preserve the Plan and undercut the moral arguments against the Temple. At that point, it's game over for Merlin's plan.

Dauntless wrote:how did gunpowder get reinvented with the name gunpowder?

that was way before merlin awoke, yet it carries the same name as its earth predecessor.

at least some of merlin's things are getting new names.

Shan wei'd candles for matches
shan wei's foot stools for landmines
lewiscyte for dynamite

also muskets, rifles and some other things. ships and swords were in use from day 1 likely, so those get a pass but there are several inventions carrying their earth name that were not invented by merlin or his associates.

I'd say translation convention. Safehold English is already far removed from our English, and it's easier to just write "musket" than to ask the readers to remember that "buhmstyk" is pretty much the same thing as our musket.

Although it'd sure be funny to read the entire series with people firing "buhmstyks" and aiming "shutahs"

Well taken point, Bluestrike2.

The Reformists are the biggest danger to Merlin's goals and any intelligent entity left by the command crew is indeed going to be Reformist.

evilauthor wrote:

HamsterDesTodes wrote:The decision doesnt have to be made for positive reasons. A nice and friendly personality works best of course, but "Nobody is allowed to abuse power but myself" could be a decent starting point as well, followed by a cost/benefit analysis of CoGA vs CoC reputation where Charis should win handily.
Also keep in mind that as long as whatever is below the temple got even partial access to recent (as in: last couple of centuries or somesuch) activities inside the temple, there can be no question that nobody in the temple is actually a believer, whereas a short observation of Maikel will show a deeply religious personality. Just as long as he doesnt know what exactly Maikel believes in (or better: doesnt believe in) the decision who's the more trustworthy would be easy.
Worked during the last war, didnt it? You know, the one that was won last week before I went to sleep.

Now, the seijin stories may be a n unsurpassable hurdle, unless the thing writes them off as exactly that: stories.

On the flip side, any cursory examination of Charis is going to show a HEAVY outside influence. Rapid tech progression is (barely) plausible. The complete and exact reinvention of Arabian numerals right down to the exact NAME for them (not to mention all the other Old Earth terminology) is not.

And any direct examination of the Charisian leadership is likely to reveal their using Fed Tech wireless comms. Merlin has a damn good reason to never let himself or any of his remotes within five miles of the Temple.

If the so called Angel wants to take over the Church of Charis, naturally all the federation tech needs to be ditched. And of course he will eventually figure out something strange is going on. Otherwise there would be no conflict, which makes for boring books
But a (seemingly) peacefull ending of this story arc would make for one heck of a cliffhanger!

In regards to the exact names: I always take these "exact names" as a courtsey by the author towards the reader, not as something thats actually used.
Just like a language that can still be understood after more than a 1,300 years (names excluded in this particular series and didnt that turn out to be a mess?), its simply there so we can actually enjoy the book.
For another example look at 'nearoak', 'lizzard-cat', 'near-palm' and so on. Why on earth (or Safehold) should Longhorn call any plant/animal "near-something" or similar, which is an explicit referal to something that doesnt exist on Safehold? That would be just plain stupid!
No, all that's just a nicety for us readers so we can immerse ourselves better, and I wouldnt have it any other way!

Bluestrike2 wrote:

HamsterDesTodes wrote:The decision doesnt have to be made for positive reasons. A nice and friendly personality works best of course, but "Nobody is allowed to abuse power but myself" could be a decent starting point as well, followed by a cost/benefit analysis of CoGA vs CoC reputation where Charis should win handily.
Also keep in mind that as long as whatever is below the temple got even partial access to recent (as in: last couple of centuries or somesuch) activities inside the temple, there can be no question that nobody in the temple is actually a believer, whereas a short observation of Maikel will show a deeply religious personality. Just as long as he doesnt know what exactly Maikel believes in (or better: doesnt believe in) the decision who's the more trustworthy would be easy.
Worked during the last war, didnt it? You know, the one that was won last week before I went to sleep.

Now, the seijin stories may be a n unsurpassable hurdle, unless the thing writes them off as exactly that: stories.

No returning angel would ever support Charis over the Temple no matter how egregious its behavior might be or how badly they're losing the war. To support Charis would be to acknowledge and legitimize a right to breakaway from a centralized Mother Church. And that'd never fly, because it would undermine the key safeguard built into Langhorne's plans to prevent native tech from developing.

Personal piety didn't matter when the command staff set themselves up as gods; why would it matter now? An angel can intervene to help the Temple *and* reject the Temple's actions. It'd preserve the Plan and undercut the moral arguments against the Temple. At that point, it's game over for Merlin's plan.

While you have a good point whit the precedence an acceptance of the CoC would set, I dont understand where you get the "piety didnt matter" from. From every story we hear, the Adams and Eves were exeptional pious and nothing I remember seems to indicate that anything less was acceptable. Quite the contrary, the command crew went to extraordinary length to prove their religion and left behind miracles to keep the faith alive (that it broke down so completely and so fast despite those living miracles is nothing less but astonishing IMHO, but that's for a different thread).

If you're refering to the "angels" themselves then you're completely missing a rather important point: whats acceptable for the angels is NOT acceptable for the sheep. Of course the command crew wasnt faithfull to the religion they themself invented. That was never the point, and anyways, how could they? They invented it!
But they made damn sure that the population did belive and I cannot see why anything but full subservience should be acceptable now.

HamsterDesTodes wrote:
While you have a good point whit the precedence an acceptance of the CoC would set, I dont understand where you get the "piety didnt matter" from. From every story we hear, the Adams and Eves were exeptional pious and nothing I remember seems to indicate that anything less was acceptable. Quite the contrary, the command crew went to extraordinary length to prove their religion and left behind miracles to keep the faith alive (that it broke down so completely and so fast despite those living miracles is nothing less but astonishing IMHO, but that's for a different thread).

If you're refering to the "angels" themselves then you're completely missing a rather important point: whats acceptable for the angels is NOT acceptable for the sheep. Of course the command crew wasnt faithfull to the religion they themself invented. That was never the point, and anyways, how could they? They invented it!
But they made damn sure that the population did belive and I cannot see why anything but full subservience should be acceptable now.

That is finally the point...full subservience. Anything that would awaken under the Temple would be intent on putting Langhorne's plan back on track. Charis' destruction would be assured if the means still exist to do it. That, of course, is the real question and if Merlin and Nimue can either decouple the AI from its means of enforcing its will or perhaps keep it from waking up altogether...

Don

-

Since CoC with Merlin an OWL have been using all sorts of TF tech for commuincations, you have to wonder just exactly how sensitive The Thing is along with the orbital platform(s) for monitoring what is going on at the surface level of Safehold. TF com isn't exactly NOT electricity, its communication format that the Orbitals and sensors should be able to discover in routine coverage. Ok, they are "secure" TF combat tech, and, ok, the Fallen probably were using this type of equipment during the war but were very difficult for the Angles to track down. But it is still TF communications equipment being used for some level of multi-source fairly planet-wide communications.

What is going to happen when The Thing wakes up for it's look at Safehold and discovers that there has been a planet-wide rebellion against the CoGA? If there is an AI, what instructions have been left with it? If it is an avitar of Langthorn or one of the Archangels, what is it going to see vs what it expect to see and all the advancements in physical sciences including steam power? That drives the question of what exactly could it do since the rebels are firmly in control of much of the inhabited portions of the planet and the technology is widespread- very widespread and growing.

Could there be, at this point, an option to cut the population down to some minimum sustainable population and reestablish the Church by reprogramming the survivors as Langthorn did with the original colonists? That seems quite a challange if all the equipment is just gone- destroyed in one way or another or totally off planet in some sort of cashe of equipment somewhere in-system (with it's own anti-space debris defenses still active- wouldn't that draw Goaba like honey)

We shall see.

HamsterDesTodes wrote:While you have a good point whit the precedence an acceptance of the CoC would set, I dont understand where you get the "piety didnt matter" from. From every story we hear, the Adams and Eves were exeptional pious and nothing I remember seems to indicate that anything less was acceptable. Quite the contrary, the command crew went to extraordinary length to prove their religion and left behind miracles to keep the faith alive (that it broke down so completely and so fast despite those living miracles is nothing less but astonishing IMHO, but that's for a different thread).

If you're refering to the "angels" themselves then you're completely missing a rather important point: whats acceptable for the angels is NOT acceptable for the sheep. Of course the command crew wasnt faithfull to the religion they themself invented. That was never the point, and anyways, how could they? They invented it!
But they made damn sure that the population did belive and I cannot see why anything but full subservience should be acceptable now.

My point was that the people's belief isn't something to be respected for the command staff and whomever remained under the Temple. It never was. It's a tool, meant to manipulate and limit them. It doesn't matter that Maikel genuinely believes in God or that the Temple's leadership cares more about personal gain than godliness. All that matters is how those attitudes can be used in furtherance of Langhorne's plan. Maikel's piety is an active problem because it helps justify his schism; the Temple leadership's avarice and corruption are tools to be leveraged to the Church's benefit. Corruption can always be trimmed back a bit after they've won and Charis is a smoking crater.

Maikel and Charis are obstacles. That's it. They're pawns to be swept off the board, and little more. Pawns might have feelings and emotions, but to a person who has spent well over a century playing the part of a divine being--and eventually, you start to believe in the part you play day in and day out--it doesn't matter.

As for your last point, you're right. But my thinking was that if they had any respect for faith and piety in the first place, they wouldn't have gone along with Langhorne even after he put his plan into motion. They'd have lined Langhorne and his followers against a wall and shot him. Instead, they leveraged faith as a tool to manipulate with far more cynicism than any ruler in human history.

Of course, if that happened, it would have been a much different story, now wouldn't it?