Church Financial status

TN4994 wrote:Or if you're worried about being told that you don't seem to be a loyal member of Mother Church, forgive the debt. I know what Clyntahn does to people of little faith.

Except that has the same effect as the Church declaring all its debts void: NO ONE is going to trust Church promises of payment anymore. And if no one trusts Church promises of payment, the entire wartime economy collapses. Foundries workers can't buy food, and then stop working (or rebel) because they're starving to death. Same goes for the people mining ore for the foundries. Farmers can't buy supplies to keep their farms running. And it goes on and on.

As long as DuChairne is running Church finances, he's not going to do it and will continually point out the above as the reason why not.

A full on command economy MIGHT stave off collapse, but the Church has no concept of what a command economy IS (even if they've effectively made one). People expect to be paid for work done. In all likelihood, a full on command economy is likely to go the way of the Soviet Union... except do so even faster because the Church is fighting a full on war on what amounts to economic fumes.

evilauthor wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Or if you're worried about being told that you don't seem to be a loyal member of Mother Church, forgive the debt. I know what Clyntahn does to people of little faith.

Except that has the same effect as the Church declaring all its debts void: NO ONE is going to trust Church promises of payment anymore. And if no one trusts Church promises of payment, the entire wartime economy collapses. Foundries workers can't buy food, and then stop working (or rebel) because they're starving to death. Same goes for the people mining ore for the foundries. Farmers can't buy supplies to keep their farms running. And it goes on and on.

As long as DuChairne is running Church finances, he's not going to do it and will continually point out the above as the reason why not.

A full on command economy MIGHT stave off collapse, but the Church has no concept of what a command economy IS (even if they've effectively made one). People expect to be paid for work done. In all likelihood, a full on command economy is likely to go the way of the Soviet Union... except do so even faster because the Church is fighting a full on war on what amounts to economic fumes.

Have faith. We'll make good after we kill off all these heretics. Tell you what, I'll let you use those to buy land in Codisande.

evilauthor wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Or if you're worried about being told that you don't seem to be a loyal member of Mother Church, forgive the debt. I know what Clyntahn does to people of little faith.

Except that has the same effect as the Church declaring all its debts void: NO ONE is going to trust Church promises of payment anymore. And if no one trusts Church promises of payment, the entire wartime economy collapses. Foundries workers can't buy food, and then stop working (or rebel) because they're starving to death. Same goes for the people mining ore for the foundries. Farmers can't buy supplies to keep their farms running. And it goes on and on.

As long as DuChairne is running Church finances, he's not going to do it and will continually point out the above as the reason why not.

A full on command economy MIGHT stave off collapse, but the Church has no concept of what a command economy IS (even if they've effectively made one). People expect to be paid for work done. In all likelihood, a full on command economy is likely to go the way of the Soviet Union... except do so even faster because the Church is fighting a full on war on what amounts to economic fumes.

Actually command economies work best in times of extreme stress such as the Soviet Union in WW2 because imperatives of survival make is easier to force people to work together. They are more prone to coming unglued when the stress is removed. I think the church could make it work for a quite a while if they could get it implemented.

Don

evilauthor wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:As I have said, I believe that virtually all of the money in circulation is coinage, not paper. What paper in circulation is effectively IOUs, with very limited transfer value. Therefore counterfeiting is not really possible except for the base metal coated by value. Unfortunately that requires electroplating, which requires electricity which is a big NO-NO for both sides.

I suppose you could use batteries, but finding that out would involve dabbling in forbidden knowledge, so I can't see the church doing it, and there is no need for EoC to do so. Besides which, if the EoC does do into electroplating, there are much better uses for it than counterfeiting church coinage.

Except Duchairn talks about Church IOUs "trading well below their stated value". Which suggests trading IOUs is a common and accepted practice.

Heck, even Charisian IOUs (in Corisande) were being traded until Cayleb took specific steps to stop it.

And think about it. The people the Church pays with IOUs needs to pay THEIR bills as well. If they can't trade away their IOU for the resources they need to survive and keep working, then those IOUs are effectively worthless. And the people who supply those people doing things for the Church need to pay THEIR bills...

What good is an IOU to a Saint Kilsman shop worker if they can't use that IOU to buy food? Is he supposed to make his own IOU for the food vender? Is the food vender supposed to use home-made IOUs to pay his bills? Wouldn't having a tons of home-made, non-standard IOUs floating around and being used to pay for goods be just begging for abuse? At least with Church IOUs, you know who to go to for your money and have a reasonable expectation of being able to get it.

The Church can start printing IOUs with different denominations to denote how much that particular IOU is worth in gold/silver (to be redeemed at a future date when the war is over), and so the Church begins printing fiat money which is backed by actual gold/silver(if the Church wins)

Clynthan (I only realized last week that Cylntahn is Clinton /facepalm) might wish to have people working for the Church without pay. I remember he was incensed at DuChairne paying a pension to the families of the sailors of the Navy of God in the second attempt to crush Charis, he was of the opinion that those men should be willing to serve in the NoG at no cost. Their faith and that they were fighting for the Church and God should have been enough payment in his eyes. So it is possible of Clyntahn just declaring some of the Church debts void. Fortunately he is being held back by more financially adept people like DuChairne, and Cylntahn knows he himself is inept with finances, so he trusts the others. for now. Given the increasingly dire straits the Church is going to be in though, he could very well lose it and just seize the money, declaring Church eminent domain and les majesty, and expect to get away with it because Cylntahn speaks for God and the Church in his mind.

fallsfromtrees wrote:As I have said, I believe that virtually all of the money in circulation is coinage, not paper. What paper in circulation is effectively IOUs, with very limited transfer value. Therefore counterfeiting is not really possible except for the base metal coated by value. Unfortunately that requires electroplating, which requires electricity which is a big NO-NO for both sides.

Not true. There are other methods besides electroplating to counterfeit coins with base metals.

SWM wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:As I have said, I believe that virtually all of the money in circulation is coinage, not paper. What paper in circulation is effectively IOUs, with very limited transfer value. Therefore counterfeiting is not really possible except for the base metal coated by value. Unfortunately that requires electroplating, which requires electricity which is a big NO-NO for both sides.

Not true. There are other methods besides electroplating to counterfeit coins with base metals.

Someone knows about enveloping one metal inside another. The silversmith guild can do it for a percentage.

There is another way for Charis to undercut the CoGA.
After all, the recent information about Silverlode Island could well provide a way to end the war; to wit, we'll buy your debts to the CoGA.

Slice 'em off from their root finances- Buy their debts to the church, and provide 'real currency' as opposed to whatever the boys in Zion come up with

Caliban wrote:There is another way for Charis to undercut the CoGA.
After all, the recent information about Silverlode Island could well provide a way to end the war; to wit, we'll buy your debts to the CoGA.

Slice 'em off from their root finances- Buy their debts to the church, and provide 'real currency' as opposed to whatever the boys in Zion come up with

Would that my enemies helped like that. By Harchong's or the Border Kingdom's debt to the CoGA and those loyal sons of Mother Church have more income to be tithed by the G4. Defeat the CoGA first and generosity might follow after.

PeterZ wrote:

Caliban wrote:There is another way for Charis to undercut the CoGA.
After all, the recent information about Silverlode Island could well provide a way to end the war; to wit, we'll buy your debts to the CoGA.

Slice 'em off from their root finances- Buy their debts to the church, and provide 'real currency' as opposed to whatever the boys in Zion come up with

Would that my enemies helped like that. By Harchong's or the Border Kingdom's debt to the CoGA and those loyal sons of Mother Church have more income to be tithed by the G4. Defeat the CoGA first and generosity might follow after.

Not quite... the terms of peace would include buying out the debt-Charis wants to be seen, above all,as honoring its word. As opposed to the CoGA'a version of 'do it, and we'll make it right'

real cash? Or a promise? Seems a no brainer to me.

Caliban wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Would that my enemies helped like that. By Harchong's or the Border Kingdom's debt to the CoGA and those loyal sons of Mother Church have more income to be tithed by the G4. Defeat the CoGA first and generosity might follow after.

Not quite... the terms of peace would include buying out the debt-Charis wants to be seen, above all,as honoring its word. As opposed to the CoGA'a version of 'do it, and we'll make it right'

real cash? Or a promise? Seems a no brainer to me.

So. The Writ says that you are free to break oaths to a heretic. Again, after the G4 is defeated, be as generous with funds as you like. Not before the G4 are forced to rescind their claim to Charis's heresy.