Is Clyntahn an atheist?

Hi fallsfromtrees,

Yes, Merlin and company were feeling a bit more pessimistic then.

But the canal raid didn't impact what happened either on the Daivyn or the Sylvan gap at all. Both AOG armies were fully supplied at that point.

I don't know what the impact of having the Harchongians forward at that time would have been. They might have forced the exenditure of a lot of ammo. Or they might have just been in the AOG's way.

Don

Those other colonists have been the subject of plenty of speculation in terms of "other secret brotherhoods".

The only thing David Weber has said about other secret brotherhoods is that the Inquisition has never discovered any "secret brotherhoods"

Of course, with the Sisters of Saint Khody, David Weber has given us a secret group not associated with Shan-Wei.

So what other surprises can we expect?

McGuiness wrote:

That brings up the question of what the other 208 colonists did with their knowledge of the truth, and what if any part of it did they leave behind for later generations? There may be more support and understanding of the truth than anyone suspects.

McGuiness wrote:That brings up the question of what the other 208 colonists did with their knowledge of the truth, and what if any part of it did they leave behind for later generations? There may be more support and understanding of the truth than anyone suspects.

The fact that Siddarmark has fully elected government including head of state (albeit with a restricted franchise, and an even harder restriction on candidates) is frequently taken as an indication of a Shan-Wei cell. In the absence of contradictory evidence from either RFC or textev, I'm prepared to believe it.

However there is a question in my mind. Charis has a House of Commons because of the influence of the brotherhood, but Chisholm and Corisande both had/have House of Commons as well ... Where did they come from?

PalmerSperry wrote:

McGuiness wrote:That brings up the question of what the other 208 colonists did with their knowledge of the truth, and what if any part of it did they leave behind for later generations? There may be more support and understanding of the truth than anyone suspects.

The fact that Siddarmark has fully elected government including head of state (albeit with a restricted franchise, and an even harder restriction on candidates) is frequently taken as an indication of a Shan-Wei cell. In the absence of contradictory evidence from either RFC or textev, I'm prepared to believe it.

However there is a question in my mind. Charis has a House of Commons because of the influence of the brotherhood, but Chisholm and Corisande both had/have House of Commons as well ... Where did they come from?

It is always good for a ruler to give the people the illusion that they have a say in the government - this has been known since long before Machiavelli, and I don't think it would have taken the rulers on Safehold long to figure it out for themselves, even assuming that the Archangels hadn't instituted something like a town council for the various towns in the days after landing. The practice of nobles and commoners was not a part of the original structure on Safehold (at least there is no such textev of such, IIRC), so the government would have been done something along this lines, with the church in an overriding position.

The subject of what happened to all of Shan-wei's re-educated colonists has come up before. I imagine that a certain percentage of them buried themselves as deeply as possible to avoid being killed.

But I also suspect that there other groups out there like the Brethren of St Zherneau or even the SSK who preserved alternate versions of Safehold's beginnings.

As the story continues, it will be interesting to see what comes forth.

Don

I suspect that the majority "buried themselves to avoid discovery".

Others could have created an organization along with a secret library but it was destroyed by war or natural disaster of some sort.

A few "secret libraries" may have been viewed by their successors but the successors decided that the books were heretical and destroyed the books (obviously without reporting the books to the Inquisition).

n7axw wrote:The subject of what happened to all of Shan-wei's re-educated colonists has come up before. I imagine that a certain percentage of them buried themselves as deeply as possible to avoid being killed.

But I also suspect that there other groups out there like the Brethren of St Zherneau or even the SSK who preserved alternate versions of Safehold's beginnings.

As the story continues, it will be interesting to see what comes forth.

Don

DrakBibliophile wrote:I suspect that the majority "buried themselves to avoid discovery".

Others could have created an organization along with a secret library but it was destroyed by war or natural disaster of some sort.

A few "secret libraries" may have been viewed by their successors but the successors decided that the books were heretical and destroyed the books (obviously without reporting the books to the Inquisition).

n7axw wrote:The subject of what happened to all of Shan-wei's re-educated colonists has come up before. I imagine that a certain percentage of them buried themselves as deeply as possible to avoid being killed.

But I also suspect that there other groups out there like the Brethren of St Zherneau or even the SSK who preserved alternate versions of Safehold's beginnings.

As the story continues, it will be interesting to see what comes forth.

Don

Maybe. But who knows. Let's say that out of the 208, 190 buried themselves, maybe 12 left behind books or journals to be destroyed, and the other 6 founded secret organizations of which 3 survive. All completely conjectural, but there is a certain ring of plausibility to it.

Don

Siddarmark being a Republic has always raised a red flag in the discussions of possible secret societies. The fact that the "elected" ruler is always from one of a few select families adds credence to the theory that something is strange about Siddarmark...

Toss in the Inquisition's paranoia about Siddarmark - and the fact that the Inquisition was every bit as paranoid about Charis, and I tend to give even more credence to there having been some sort of knowledge passed down and implemented in the government of Siddarmark. It doesn't practice serfdom and as far as the textev goes, it doesn't appear that it ever did, which makes me say "Hmmm..."

I'll agree that after seeing what happened to Shan-Wei and the Alexandria Enclave, as well as living through the War of the Angels (during which Shan-Wei's re-educated colonists had a better understanding of why the war was being fought and what the stakes were than any other humans) it's pretty clear that most of them probably kept their heads down and did their best not to make waves. Merlin thought that's what they probably did.

I've wondered if some of them fought on Shan-Wei's side though, since they knew who was actually in the right! On second thought, the risk to their families (and anyone else who might have been like them) was probably too great. If the Inquisition learned that some colonists knew that the CoG was a complete lie, and the CoGA was an even bigger lie, there would have been a worldwide hunt for them. Since as far as we know that didn't happen, so either none of the re-educated colonists fought for Shan-Wei, or if they did, none of them and were captured and cracked under torture. Of course they were fairly old by the time the War of the Angels began, and most had died by the time it ended if I recall the dates correctly. (The calendar of the CoGA begins about 125 years after the day of creation if I remember the textev correctly. Feel free to correct me with the proper number!)

Keeping their heads down is not the same as doing nothing, as we saw with Jeremiah Knowles giving his journal and the History of the Terran Federation to St. Zherneau's with instructions not to read them for centuries. He simply made sure that the information he passed along wouldn't come to light until he and several generations of his grandchildren had passed away. That pretty much would have prevented the Inquisition from killing everyone distantly related to him. I suspect that others did similar things - and I'd also bet that some told their children the truth, after carefully raising them in a way that their belief in mother church wasn't absolute so they'd be open to the truth. It wouldn't do to have your kids denounce you to the Inquisition after all!

So I'd bet there are some secret societies that date from the days that they were founded by the still living re-educated Adams and Eves. Siddarmark may well be be the home of one of them, although the anomaly of a Republic surrounded by Monarchies is more obvious to someone who didn't grow up in the social matrix of mother church on Safehold. If Charis didn't exist, Merlin probably would have gone to Siddarmark.

SPOILER!!!!!!
The SSK is a rather unexpected example of a secret society that was founded on only a sliver of the truth, yet has been very effective in its mission for centuries. Seijin Kohdy may have been an easier figure to rally around than a re-educated Adam or Eve, but there could only be a very limited number of such societies - after all, seijins were by and large those who fought on the side of the archangels in the War of the Angels if I understand the explanation correctly - which is why Seijin Kohdy has been turned into a caricature of a seijin, and appears in tall tales so that nobody takes him seriously. After all, it certainly wouldn't serve the CoGA's purposes if it was well known that one of the most famous of the seijins fought for Shan-Wei!

Very insightful McGuiness, Im thinking that maybe Greyghor Stohnar will catch Cayleb and Merlin talking about somthing he should not hear, then tell them about a cell based in Siddarmark.

McGuiness wrote:Siddarmark being a Republic has always raised a red flag in the discussions of possible secret societies. The fact that the "elected" ruler is always from one of a few select families adds credence to the theory that something is strange about Siddarmark...

Toss in the Inquisition's paranoia about Siddarmark - and the fact that the Inquisition was every bit as paranoid about Charis, and I tend to give even more credence to there having been some sort of knowledge passed down and implemented in the government of Siddarmark. It doesn't practice serfdom and as far as the textev goes, it doesn't appear that it ever did, which makes me say "Hmmm..."

I'll agree that after seeing what happened to Shan-Wei and the Alexandria Enclave, as well as living through the War of the Angels (during which Shan-Wei's re-educated colonists had a better understanding of why the war was being fought and what the stakes were than any other humans) it's pretty clear that most of them probably kept their heads down and did their best not to make waves. Merlin thought that's what they probably did.

I've wondered if some of them fought on Shan-Wei's side though, since they knew who was actually in the right! On second thought, the risk to their families (and anyone else who might have been like them) was probably too great. If the Inquisition learned that some colonists knew that the CoG was a complete lie, and the CoGA was an even bigger lie, there would have been a worldwide hunt for them. Since as far as we know that didn't happen, so either none of the re-educated colonists fought for Shan-Wei, or if they did, none of them and were captured and cracked under torture. Of course they were fairly old by the time the War of the Angels began, and most had died by the time it ended if I recall the dates correctly. (The calendar of the CoGA begins about 125 years after the day of creation if I remember the textev correctly. Feel free to correct me with the proper number!)

Keeping their heads down is not the same as doing nothing, as we saw with Jeremiah Knowles giving his journal and the History of the Terran Federation to St. Zherneau's with instructions not to read them for centuries. He simply made sure that the information he passed along wouldn't come to light until he and several generations of his grandchildren had passed away. That pretty much would have prevented the Inquisition from killing everyone distantly related to him. I suspect that others did similar things - and I'd also bet that some told their children the truth, after carefully raising them in a way that their belief in mother church wasn't absolute so they'd be open to the truth. It wouldn't do to have your kids denounce you to the Inquisition after all!

So I'd bet there are some secret societies that date from the days that they were founded by the still living re-educated Adams and Eves. Siddarmark may well be be the home of one of them, although the anomaly of a Republic surrounded by Monarchies is more obvious to someone who didn't grow up in the social matrix of mother church on Safehold. If Charis didn't exist, Merlin probably would have gone to Siddarmark.

SPOILER!!!!!!
The SSK is a rather unexpected example of a secret society that was founded on only a sliver of the truth, yet has been very effective in its mission for centuries. Seijin Kohdy may have been an easier figure to rally around than a re-educated Adam or Eve, but there could only be a very limited number of such societies - after all, seijins were by and large those who fought on the side of the archangels in the War of the Angels if I understand the explanation correctly - which is why Seijin Kohdy has been turned into a caricature of a seijin, and appears in tall tales so that nobody takes him seriously. After all, it certainly wouldn't serve the CoGA's purposes if it was well known that one of the most famous of the seijins fought for Shan-Wei!

Just a couple of comments... "So far as we know..." Truth of the matter be known, we know very little of that early period from textev. Just enough to fuel speculation; good speculation, perhaps, but speculation nonetheless.

Why the earth pattern for an aristocrisy? My own guess is that the archangels must have implemented it. They are the ones who would have known of dukes, earls, barons, etc. And it does fit the medieval pattern they apparently wanted.

Now about the republic... That had to be one of Shan-wei's re-educated colonists; no other way to account for it. For the archangels themselves to have told Safehold about republics and offer choices would be completely contrary to character and the strait jacket they were trying to impose in other ways.

Don