(SPOILERS) Dialydd's report

PeterZ wrote:Don,

I suspect the lack of tribes is a function of the disintegration of Safehold humanity's belief of a common genesis. Man was truly created equal on Safehold. The Testemonies prove this. What follows are chapter after chapter in their history of Safeholdians emphasizing their differences rather than reveling in their common Divine genesis.

I suspect clannishness as an adaptation of how to prioritize who to help in difficult times. Given limited resources, help family first and strangers after securing the family's prospects.

Tribalism would have been helpful in integration humanity into larger groups. That stage would come in as groups of clans collected to share resources. Creation had already established larger social structures that allowed for sharing resources. There would be no need for tribes baring the complete disintegration of all society.

On Terra clans united into tribes or ethnic groups which in turn evolved into nations. On Safehold nations seen to have evolved from enclaves. Clans are extended families on both Terra and Safehold, more important where survival is more precarious... Given the existence of nations, I wouldn't expect to see tribes unless nations were to disintegration of nations.

I think we are agreeing this time.

Don

Sorry, Don. I promise to try harder next time;-)

PeterZ wrote:
Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

Why is it that Hitler and the Nazis have become the "epitome o Evil" when the Bolsheviks under Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were even more murderous, and together with their acolytes Mao, Ho and Pol Pot kept the murder and repression going for much longer, in fact for most of the 20th Century from 1917 onwards.

Hitler and the Nazis were rank amateurs compared to them.

chrisd wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

Why is it that Hitler and the Nazis have become the "epitome o Evil" when the Bolsheviks under Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were even more murderous, and together with their acolytes Mao, Ho and Pol Pot kept the murder and repression going for much longer, in fact for most of the 20th Century from 1917 onwards.

Hitler and the Nazis were rank amateurs compared to them.

Because many in the west like to think socialism and communism is a morally superior system to capitalism? This butchers you mention had the saving grace to trying till implement that morally superior system while Hitler tried to retain much of capitalism for his version of socialism.

That's my guess anyway.

chrisd wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

Why is it that Hitler and the Nazis have become the "epitome o Evil" when the Bolsheviks under Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were even more murderous, and together with their acolytes Mao, Ho and Pol Pot kept the murder and repression going for much longer, in fact for most of the 20th Century from 1917 onwards.

Hitler and the Nazis were rank amateurs compared to them.

You do have a point. But you must admit that in the murder and terror department the Nazis were extremely efficient in the short time they had... Scarcely amateurs.

I think that part of it comes from the way that Germany under the Nazis launched agressive war in the cradle of Western Civilization and were so utterly brutal about it with a not insignificant portion of that brutality carried out in Germany itself.

Then for those of us in the West in particular, the Nazis were the enemy we had to come to grips with along with the Japanese militarists who were no slouches themselves in murder and terror. Racial bias in some respects made that conflict even worse than the one in Europe. War leads to the dehumanization and demonization of the enemy.

So the evil we perceive from Germany and Japan seens so much more immediate than what happened in China, Russia and Cambodia. I will fully grant your point about the latter, however. My point is simply to explain the psychology of how things played out in the West.

Don

chrisd wrote:
Why is it that Hitler and the Nazis have become the "epitome o Evil" when the Bolsheviks under Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were even more murderous, and together with their acolytes Mao, Ho and Pol Pot kept the murder and repression going for much longer, in fact for most of the 20th Century from 1917 onwards.

Please. The Stalin's repression were greatly overestimated. True, they were cruel and ruthless, and a great number of innocent peoples suffered. But the communists in russia NEVER set goal of destroying entire nations. For the communists point of view (at least in theory), the "repentant" capitalist, that gave his "dishonestly acquired wealth" ( ) to the workers and now makes a living by honest labor is a good man. For the Nazi point of view, there was simply no such thing as the good Jew, Roma or any other nation that they consider "lesser race". They only be able to tolerate them if they were really usefull (there was even the therm "economically usefull jew" for the small minority in german elite, that was usefull for nazi)

I admit, i can't say that about the Mao and especially the maniac Pol Pot.

chrisd wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

Why is it that Hitler and the Nazis have become the "epitome o Evil" when the Bolsheviks under Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin were even more murderous, and together with their acolytes Mao, Ho and Pol Pot kept the murder and repression going for much longer, in fact for most of the 20th Century from 1917 onwards.

Hitler and the Nazis were rank amateurs compared to them.

Holywood, Pinewood, et al.

Dilandu wrote: Please. The Stalin's repression were greatly overestimated. True, they were cruel and ruthless, and a great number of innocent peoples suffered.

Please, Dilandu, If the Bolshevik repression was 10% of that claimed, it would still have been murderous, and unnecessary.

Yet another case that no country ever really benefits from a revolution. You merely replace bad rulers with worse.

chrisd wrote:
Yet another case that no country ever really benefits from a revolution. You merely replace bad rulers with worse.

I think you may find some posters from the US who disagree with you just a bit.

(may even be some Italians, French , ...)

chrisd wrote:Please, Dilandu, If the Bolshevik repression was 10% of that claimed, it would still have been murderous, and unnecessary.

According to internal documentation (i.e. the documentation of USSR state sequrity)from the 1921 to the 1953 - and the Stalin actually came to power only in early 1930th - there was about 4060306 persons, repressed by the political reasons and "counterrevolutionary actions". About 800000 were condemned to deaht and about 1760000 died in prisoners camps (but the most part of this category died in 1941-1946, because of war-caused food shortage). About 500000 were amnisted, or revealed to be innocent and freed during the peacetime of 1930-1953. And the great number were amnisted during the war.

I completely agree, that it was murderous, and greatly overscaled, but the problem was that SOME purge was really necessary. There were a lot of men, placed in 1920th on commad positions in army and local goverment only because they were "the revolution and civil war heroes". They were almost completely incompetent (actualy, many of them hardly be able to read), most of them were corrupt, and almost all of them was bowing to the radical position of the "revolution export". They were unable to do the working economy, or the creation of powerfull army.


The problem was, that the purges were conducted by the same incompetent, overenthusiastic and often corrupt persons.

Yet another case that no country ever really benefits from a revolution. You merely replace bad rulers with worse.

Well... before the revolution, the Russia was one of the last in the list of world powers.

After the revolution, the Russia eventually became one of the TWO world superpower.