(SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?

isaac_newton wrote:very good point. do they even have a concept of language as a seperate thing, giving the possibility of several languages? Though I suppose, maybe the Angels had their own language, in which case that would allow for such a thought process.

Nope. Nynian already said that she hadn't even conceived of the idea that there might be other languages until she learned about Kohdy's Journal.

Being the well educated aristocrat that she is, this suggests there's no other language other than English on Safehold AT ALL.

It's also noted in earlier books that while some regional accents have gotten strong enough to be near incomprehensible to people from other lands, they haven't evolved into totally separate languages yet. I suspect we can thank the Church's (supposed to be) universal education system and their moving priests (so everyone can hear the "proper" way to speak) around for that.

That last snippet sure revives this thread for a bit longer, doesn't it?

So now that we have snippet 5, how does it shift our perception of whether or not Nynian is to be trusted? Yeas or nays and why... I'll start off... My feeling has always been yes, that Nynian would turn out to be friend, not foe. I think that snippet 5 reinforces that, but I think Merlin needs to see the journal first. But let's extend this discussion to the sisters... Are they to be trusted? My yes here is a bit more qualified. I think Merlin needs to meet them which means that Merlin now has a vested interest in Nynian's trip to Zion.

What say, everybody??

Don

n7axw wrote:That last snippet sure revives this thread for a bit longer, doesn't it?

So now that we have snippet 5, how does it shift our perception of whether or not Nynian is to be trusted? Yeas or nays and why... I'll start off... My feeling has always been yes, that Nynian would turn out to be friend, not foe. I think that snippet 5 reinforces that, but I think Merlin needs to see the journal first. But let's extend this discussion to the sisters... Are they to be trusted? My yes here is a bit more qualified. I think Merlin needs to meet them which means that Merlin now has a vested interest in Nynian's trip to Zion.

What say, everybody??

Don

Who says the Abbey is in Zion? That would be a high-risk strategy if ever there was one. (Do we even know where Saint Anzhelyk's is located?)

The sisters don't get trusted without being vetted, just like everyone else. I would have thought some of them could be a high risk for a type 2 failure - 'Now we can prove these #?@~#s were wrong and everyone should know!'

n7axw wrote:That last snippet sure revives this thread for a bit longer, doesn't it?

So now that we have snippet 5, how does it shift our perception of whether or not Nynian is to be trusted? Yeas or nays and why... I'll start off... My feeling has always been yes, that Nynian would turn out to be friend, not foe. I think that snippet 5 reinforces that, but I think Merlin needs to see the journal first. But let's extend this discussion to the sisters... Are they to be trusted? My yes here is a bit more qualified. I think Merlin needs to meet them which means that Merlin now has a vested interest in Nynian's trip to Zion.

What say, everybody??

Don

I'd say less trusted. The sisterhood's suspicions don't seem to be against Langhorne and Bedard, but against Schueler and Chihiro. Their doubts about Shan-wei being evil seem to be if the Rakurai that destroyed Alexandria really done by Schueler and Chihiro as a cover for killing Langhorne and taking over themselves. Their doubts aren't about the actual divinity of the Archangels. That's a significant difference from the Brotherhood of St. Zhernau.

If the sisterhood's goal is to return the COGA to Langhorne's plan that they believe Schuler and Chihiro corrupted, then revealing that Shan-wei was in fact in rebellion to Langhorne and Langhorne did in fact order the Rakurai strike will probably convince them that Merlin is a demon.

To an extent, it really doesn't matter what the Spanish sections of Khody's diary say, the fact the sisterhood can't get any translator but Merlin is going to taint the translation he gives them. Even if the the diary supports everything Merlin says, how can the sisterhood know if the translation he gave them is accurate? For all they'll know he just made it all up because an actual translation would have blown all sorts of holes in Merlin's story.

Randomiser wrote:

n7axw wrote:That last snippet sure revives this thread for a bit longer, doesn't it?

So now that we have snippet 5, how does it shift our perception of whether or not Nynian is to be trusted? Yeas or nays and why... I'll start off... My feeling has always been yes, that Nynian would turn out to be friend, not foe. I think that snippet 5 reinforces that, but I think Merlin needs to see the journal first. But let's extend this discussion to the sisters... Are they to be trusted? My yes here is a bit more qualified. I think Merlin needs to meet them which means that Merlin now has a vested interest in Nynian's trip to Zion.

What say, everybody??

Don

Who says the Abbey is in Zion? That would be a high-risk strategy if ever there was one. (Do we even know where Saint Anzhelyk's is located?)

The sisters don't get trusted without being vetted, just like everyone else. I would have thought some of them could be a high risk for a type 2 failure - 'Now we can prove these #?@~#s were wrong and everyone should know!'

I quite agree. In fact all we have at this time is Nynian's word for any of this. The stakes are too high for Nynian to be trusted without verification. That is the importance of the journal. Ideally, Merlin would read the journal surrounded by both Nynian and some of the sisters.

I don't think we have to worry about your type two failure... You are no longer dealing with people who are exposed exclusively to the Writ's version of the truth. Although they still are accepting the Writ, they do know about a conflicting story line and are accustomed to the notion that "something is rotten in Denmark" and that at least the lesser angels are capable of suppressing the truth and perhaps even outright lying. Further, they are accustomed to the notion that their own version of the truth must be hidden. Given that, they are unlikely to start blabbing...

Don

keylime314 wrote:
To an extent, it really doesn't matter what the Spanish sections of Khody's diary say, the fact the sisterhood can't get any translator but Merlin is going to taint the translation he gives them. Even if the the diary supports everything Merlin says, how can the sisterhood know if the translation he gave them is accurate? For all they'll know he just made it all up because an actual translation would have blown all sorts of holes in Merlin's story.

well, providing a decent dictionary/grammer along with the translation should help on that front. It would be non trivial to make up a dictionary just to fit the paras/pages and be reasonably self consistant I would have thought.

That would be an interesting solution to the trust issue. Supply the sisters with a spanish/english dictionary after having the talk with nynian about the truth. That way if they give merlin a copy to translate for them they can in time check and verify the authenticity and see he is telling the truth.

It would be pretty hard to setup a spanish/english translation book to slant an interpretation of passages you have never seen before without it turning into word salad and being clearly an attempt at deception.

keylime314 wrote:

n7axw wrote:That last snippet sure revives this thread for a bit longer, doesn't it?

So now that we have snippet 5, how does it shift our perception of whether or not Nynian is to be trusted? Yeas or nays and why... I'll start off... My feeling has always been yes, that Nynian would turn out to be friend, not foe. I think that snippet 5 reinforces that, but I think Merlin needs to see the journal first. But let's extend this discussion to the sisters... Are they to be trusted? My yes here is a bit more qualified. I think Merlin needs to meet them which means that Merlin now has a vested interest in Nynian's trip to Zion.

What say, everybody??

Don

I'd say less trusted. The sisterhood's suspicions don't seem to be against Langhorne and Bedard, but against Schueler and Chihiro. Their doubts about Shan-wei being evil seem to be if the Rakurai that destroyed Alexandria really done by Schueler and Chihiro as a cover for killing Langhorne and taking over themselves. Their doubts aren't about the actual divinity of the Archangels. That's a significant difference from the Brotherhood of St. Zhernau.

If the sisterhood's goal is to return the COGA to Langhorne's plan that they believe Schuler and Chihiro corrupted, then revealing that Shan-wei was in fact in rebellion to Langhorne and Langhorne did in fact order the Rakurai strike will probably convince them that Merlin is a demon.

To an extent, it really doesn't matter what the Spanish sections of Khody's diary say, the fact the sisterhood can't get any translator but Merlin is going to taint the translation he gives them. Even if the the diary supports everything Merlin says, how can the sisterhood know if the translation he gave them is accurate? For all they'll know he just made it all up because an actual translation would have blown all sorts of holes in Merlin's story.

I think that the key here is that Khody's journal has already punched a hole in the overall structure of the chuch's storyline. And if Nynian is an example, the sisters are critical thinkers who would be firmly capable of reasoning out that if there are holes in the story line that we know about, there could well be others...

I firmly agree that it would be far more desireable to let the sisters do the translating. But speaking as someone whose BA was in classical languages, I can assure you that it will take time. Not only is there is vocabulary, there is syntax, mastery of thought patterns and more... They won't have the rosetta stone software which means that even the basics are going to be done the hard way. Becoming competent to translate in proper nuance takes years of study.

What it is all going to come down to is how much Nynian is willing to trust Merlin. As far as that goes, look how much she has trusted him with already. It would seem to me that it would be a stretch to assume that as far as she has gone already she wouldn't trust him to translate. As for the other sisters, look at how senior she must be in her order. If she's not the mother superior, she is certainly high enough up to be entrusted with critical decisions and when necessary to act independently without supervision on crucial matters. In short the other sisters are already trusting Nynian.

So, subject to verification, I think that the case for including Nynian, at least, in the inner circle has grown stronger.

Don

All right Don, text has begun to support your leap of faith.

I had posited a several of years ago that whatever the organization Nynian belonged to resided in the Desolation Mountains. RFC immediately responded with a pithy quip about lack of trust. Now we find that the last stronghold of the Fallen was in the Desolation mountains. I am sure all sorts Safehold folklore tell why they chose that spot. I also suspect that enough truth survived so that a disillusioned group would follow that practice. I believe the SSoSK (Secret Sisterhood of Saint Khody) located in a location comparable to Armeggedon Reef in the monds of Safeholdians, ......(cue foreboding music)...The Desolation Mountains!

Yes, I say trust her with Father Paityr and the Stone of Schueler/verifier present when Merlin sopills the beans. Having Father Paityr play his recording of his ancestor will only strengthen the message. Also, if she doesn't believe or refuses to accept the Charisian conclusions powerfully enough to resist, the verifier is the only hope of recognizing the situation. Tell her and a small number of of people she chooses. Also have both Nimue and Merlin present. Two seijins might just come in handy, especially if Nynian only expects one.

"Any sufficiently advance technology is indistinguishable from magic." Her request in Snippet 1 is fast transporttion beyond her exprience. Kohdy's Journal may have clues on Federtion tech, at least what it can do. and thus the surprize to Merlin.

IMHO Nynian will be a trusted ally, and the other sisters on a case by case basis. Based on how they see the hinted at truth in Khody's Journal that the Adams and Eves came from else where.

Poker