Schueler, Chihiro, and the Post-War Development (SPOILERS)

CSB wrote:My impression was that Jwo-jeng was one of the original Archangels that died in Kau-yung's grand exit. Based on current information, I think Chihiro and Schueler were the only two Archangel-level figures that survived Kau-yung *and the post-infighting airbrushing of history that Chihiro did.* (Maybe Andropov as well; he's only been mentioned in the Appendices so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the text shortly in connection with Saint Kohdy.)

Jwo-jeng's Proscriptions would have been part of the Writ from the beginning, though, long before the Alexandria strike or Kau-yung's nuclear response. The Proscriptions were the core of the Writ, absolutely essential to Langhorne's anti-tech plan for humanity.

Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

It's an assumption based on Merlin's thoughts that they seem to have been in charge after the Archangels' War.

You're very likely correct that many Archangels/Angels were present when Kau-yung gave his surprise gift to Langhorne.

SWM wrote:

CSB wrote:My impression was that Jwo-jeng was one of the original Archangels that died in Kau-yung's grand exit. Based on current information, I think Chihiro and Schueler were the only two Archangel-level figures that survived Kau-yung *and the post-infighting airbrushing of history that Chihiro did.* (Maybe Andropov as well; he's only been mentioned in the Appendices so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the text shortly in connection with Saint Kohdy.)

Jwo-jeng's Proscriptions would have been part of the Writ from the beginning, though, long before the Alexandria strike or Kau-yung's nuclear response. The Proscriptions were the core of the Writ, absolutely essential to Langhorne's anti-tech plan for humanity.

Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

DrakBibliophile wrote:It's an assumption based on Merlin's thoughts that they seem to have been in charge after the Archangels' War.

You're very likely correct that many Archangels/Angels were present when Kau-yung gave his surprise gift to Langhorne.

SWM wrote:Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

I'll have to reread that part--I don't recall it off the top of my head. But that doesn't explain why some people seem to think that Chihiro and Schueler were the only Archangels to survive the nuke, when it is pretty clear that some other Archangels had to have been involved in the War after the nuke.

SWM wrote:I'll have to reread that part--I don't recall it off the top of my head. But that doesn't explain why some people seem to think that Chihiro and Schueler were the only Archangels to survive the nuke, when it is pretty clear that some other Archangels had to have been involved in the War after the nuke.

I think there's some conflation between the War Against the Fallen and the infighting among the Langhorne-loyalist command crew. They might overlap--we can't be sure yet--but they weren't the same thing.

The central problem is that Merlin's reliable information (and therefore the reader's) cuts off just before Kau-yung's nuke and doesn't resume until Nimue wakes up in the cave. His knowledge of the intervening several centuries of history are derived from the CoGA's official version, and while he might expect some airbrushing, Merlin has no way to know *how* inaccurate the official version is.

The reader now has more information, due to all the stuff we've talked about up-thread. We now know that at some point in the post-nuke world, Chihiro got the upper hand in terms of "chief airbrusher of history" and *kept* that position until all of his potential rivals were dead.

The Writ and the Appendices have a list of all of the "official" Archangels, both those loyal to Langhorne's plan and the Fallen. (Most of the command staff were regular "angels", and not named.) It's a short list on both sides.

An obvious inference about the "loyalist" Archangels is that these were the people that Chihiro chose to represent the good guys. Generally speaking, this should be a list of the Langhorne-loyalists that either died in Kau-yung's nuke *or* survived and were publicly seen to be on Chihiro's team during and after the infighting.

The list of Fallen Archangels is more interesting, since we don't know how many of them were command staff loyal to Shan-wei (my guess is most or all), and how many were initially on Langhorne's side but *not* on Chihiro's during the infighting.

Following Kau-yung's nuke, there was a period of six years called the War Against the Fallen. The end of that War was declared to be Year 0 by CoGA reckoning. Some and perhaps all of that conflict was between the surviving Langhorne-loyalists and the surviving Shan-wei-loyalists. Shan-wei's side lost.

At some point, there was *also* infighting within the Langhorne-loyalist side in order to determine what variant on Langhorne's plan for Safehold would prevail. Chihiro's side ultimately won, but it's not clear yet whether this infighting happened mostly before or after CoGA Year 0.

(I also think that Andropov survived the nuke, and was at least enough on Chihiro's side that he wasn't airbrushed out of history. There's no point in including him in the Appendices otherwise, since his Order has been completely unmentioned in the plot of the series to date. The *remarkable* personality similarities between Andropov and Saint Kohdy can't be a coincidence either.)

So, if Chihiro was the main Archangel and set the course of the early church then he was most likely the most devoted follower of Langhorne that survived Kau-Yungs nuke. The structure of the church was very close to Langhornes model from what we know of it. Schuler, otoh, seems to be a more complex character as we have contradictory evidence, the gruesome and very rigid "Book" of Schuler and the almost kindly hologram of the key of Schuler, concerned with the reform of the Church and protecting the church from corruption.

Did the inquisition start out as a totalitarian police force suspicious of all safehold citizens or was it intended as simply a church internal affairs division to oversee the members of the clergy and protect the church from corruption? Perhaps that was the point of disagreement between Chihiro and Schuler as the Inquisition became more powerful and intrusive and that led to Chihiro killing Schuler, maybe making it look like an accident or illness, and re-writing Schulers views to agree with Chihiro. Making Schuler the bad guy and contrasting Chihiro as a more moderate chuch ruler. When Schuler saw the way things were going politically and fearing for his life, He passed on the key of Schuler and charged the Wylsynn family with the care of the Church's soul, such as it was and what there was of it. This is all wild speculation of course and is only one possible theory to explain the contradiction between the Schuler of the key and the Book of Schuler.

The truth will likely be revealed in the next book, now that we have the Journal of Saint Kohdy, a text free from the taint of church revisionism. Very Eagerly awaiting the next book.

CSB wrote:

SWM wrote:I'll have to reread that part--I don't recall it off the top of my head. But that doesn't explain why some people seem to think that Chihiro and Schueler were the only Archangels to survive the nuke, when it is pretty clear that some other Archangels had to have been involved in the War after the nuke.

I think there's some conflation between the War Against the Fallen and the infighting among the Langhorne-loyalist command crew. They might overlap--we can't be sure yet--but they weren't the same thing.

You are mistaken--they were part of the same thing. And it lasted a lot longer than six years. We currently believe that it lasted many decades. From the Pearls of Weber, http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... hold/321/1:

The Revolt lasted longer after Commodore Pei's decapitation strike against Langhorne than you may now realize, and while The Book of Chihiro makes it clear that "Langhorne" won in the end, at least a portion of the struggle against "Shan-wei" was actually a succession fight between the members of the command crew who survived Pei Kau-yung's vest-pocket nuke. There was, in other words, a longer interval between the Alexandria strike and the end of the fighting than you may have realized.

Sharp Claw wrote:So, if Chihiro was the main Archangel and set the course of the early church then he was most likely the most devoted follower of Langhorne that survived Kau-Yungs nuke. The structure of the church was very close to Langhornes model from what we know of it. Schuler, otoh, seems to be a more complex character as we have contradictory evidence, the gruesome and very rigid "Book" of Schuler and the almost kindly hologram of the key of Schuler, concerned with the reform of the Church and protecting the church from corruption.

Did the inquisition start out as a totalitarian police force suspicious of all safehold citizens or was it intended as simply a church internal affairs division to oversee the members of the clergy and protect the church from corruption? Perhaps that was the point of disagreement between Chihiro and Schuler as the Inquisition became more powerful and intrusive and that led to Chihiro killing Schuler, maybe making it look like an accident or illness, and re-writing Schulers views to agree with Chihiro. Making Schuler the bad guy and contrasting Chihiro as a more moderate chuch ruler. When Schuler saw the way things were going politically and fearing for his life, He passed on the key of Schuler and charged the Wylsynn family with the care of the Church's soul, such as it was and what there was of it. This is all wild speculation of course and is only one possible theory to explain the contradiction between the Schuler of the key and the Book of Schuler.

The truth will likely be revealed in the next book, now that we have the Journal of Saint Kohdy, a text free from the taint of church revisionism. Very Eagerly awaiting the next book.

That does not make sense. Schueler was not "made the bad guy", since he is not seen in the Church as a bad guy. And the Order of Schueler did not control the Inquisition at that time. Chihiro, on the other hand, is not really considered a "more moderate church ruler"; he's hardly remembered as a ruler at all. And there is no indication in the text or the infodumps of the disagreement you suggest between Schueler and Chihiro.

As for the origins of the inquisition, I think you must have missed the long exposition by runsforcelery (also known as David Weber) a couple pages ago in this thread about that origin. The Inquisition (run by the Bedardists) was the group that determined whether a specific person or persons performed actions which have been ruled as violating the Proscriptions. The order of Jwo Jeng was responsible for determining which actions violated the Proscriptions. And the Order of Schueler was responsible for carrying out the sentences against those judged by the Inquisition as violators.

It was not until hundreds of years after the Archangels died that all three powers were consolidated in the Order of Schueler, removing the checks and balances in the system.

You are right SWM , I had not read the long clarifying post by RFC when I wrote the post you criticized and my posted theory does not fit the timeline as laid out in the RFC post.

All of which leaves several unanswered questions. What conflict, if any, was there between Schuler and Chihiro? When did Schuler pass on the key to the wylsnns? And why? Who actually wrote the book of Schuler and why did they consider such extreme punishments to be necessary?

What happened after Seijin Kohdy went to question Schuler? Did Khody actually talk to Schuler alone or in the presence of others, like Chihiro or Schuler being unavailable maybe Khody expressed his doubts to Chihiro with fatal consequences for Khody? How was the decision made to kill Khody yet to return his body & allow the sisterhood to continue? Who made those decisions? Who later made the decision that even the existence of a sisterhood of St. Khody was dangerous and the sisterhood needed to be destroyed along with any records they may have had and all mention of Seijin Khody expunged from church records?

Sharp Claw wrote:You are right SWM , I had not read the long clarifying post by RFC when I wrote the post you criticized and my posted theory does not fit the timeline as laid out in the RFC post.

All of which leaves several unanswered questions. What conflict, if any, was there between Schuler and Chihiro? When did Schuler pass on the key to the wylsnns? And why? Who actually wrote the book of Schuler and why did they consider such extreme punishments to be necessary?

Those are good questions. I don't see any reason to assume there was any conflict between Schueler and Chihiro. (Mind you, I suspect that there was a difference in opinion, but there is no text evidence to support it.)

As for your last paragraph (which I have not quoted), I'm afraid that you have just given me some unwanted Spoilers. Please be careful about that in the future. Spoilers must be carefully marked as such.

SWM wrote:<<SNIP>>
As for your last paragraph (which I have not quoted), I'm afraid that you have just given me some unwanted Spoilers. Please be careful about that in the future. Spoilers must be carefully marked as such.

SWM, the original title for this thread is marked with a spoiler alert. Somebody changed the title later and dropped the spoiler alert.