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Snippet #7 (if I have it right)

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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by Peter2   » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:32 pm

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Randomiser wrote:I don't think that Thirsk is going to try to recruit Maik for some 'Grand Plan' at this stage, quite apart from it being an extreme and unnecessary risk, the Admiral hasn't yet had time to work out what he wants to do or can do. It seems much more likely that he is trying to convince Maik to support his return to duty. After all, he isn't going back to command if the Navy's Intendant isn't happy with him doing so. OTOH Maik knows him too well for Thirsk to just pretend that the loss of his family makes no difference to his attitude, so he has to work on some story that will sound plausible to the Bishop or at least good enough to pass.

I suspect it might be something along the lines that he knows Clyntahn is out for his head and will get it someday, but the Navy is the only thing he now has left in life and it's interests, Dohlar's and Mother Church's can best be served by him spending his remaining time doing what he can for them, whatever he feels about the GoF. In other words, 'I'm resigned to my fate, but at least help me spend what time I have remaining doing something useful for my Navy, my king and my Church.' 'Clyntahn's a waste of air, but the Church will survive him. God and the Archangels expect me to do my duty whether or not *other people* are doing theirs' is certainly more believable than 'I love Vicar Zhaspahr.'


Following on from what is in the snippet, he may be about to ask Maik "Do you serve the original Mark I God and his Church, or do you serve the Mark II revised version as rewritten by Zhaspahr Clyntahn and the Go4?" or words to that effect. If Maik is honest – and I think he is – that is not an easy question to answer for a man in his position.
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:22 pm

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Yeah, that is the most likely approach Thirsk will take. Telling Maik now simply increases the risk of the Inquisition finding out. Not just because Maik will say anything, because I doubt he will. No, the more people that know of a secret the more likely the secret is exposed. Which brings up the key issue. How to keep this from the Inquisition?

Alvin Kaplan was a genius at this sort of skullduggery and he got caught.thirsk needs the seiijin network to assist or he will likely fail. If Merlin offers that help, I hope he uses the Mabb persona. That does two things; Mabb will keep all the participants that Thirsk trusts enough to let into the inner circle honest and using that persona for something other that old blooded murder. Segregating part of one's personality to that of a remorseless killer isn't healthy. Setting up Mabb for that purpose is flirting with neurosis or an extreme emotional disconnect. Incorporating that persona into more well rounded activities will help.

Randomiser wrote:I don't think that Thirsk is going to try to recruit Maik for some 'Grand Plan' at this stage, quite apart from it being an extreme and unnecessary risk, the Admiral hasn't yet had time to work out what he wants to do or can do. It seems much more likely that he is trying to convince Maik to support his return to duty. After all, he isn't going back to command if the Navy's Intendant isn't happy with him doing so. OTOH Maik knows him too well for Thirsk to just pretend that the loss of his family makes no difference to his attitude, so he has to work on some story that will sound plausible to the Bishop or at least good enough to pass.

I suspect it might be something along the lines that he knows Clyntahn is out for his head and will get it someday, but the Navy is the only thing he now has left in life and it's interests, Dohlar's and Mother Church's can best be served by him spending his remaining time doing what he can for them, whatever he feels about the GoF. In other words, 'I'm resigned to my fate, but at least help me spend what time I have remaining doing something useful for my Navy, my king and my Church.' 'Clyntahn's a waste of air, but the Church will survive him. God and the Archangels expect me to do my duty whether or not *other people* are doing theirs' is certainly more believable than 'I love Vicar Zhaspahr.'
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:09 pm

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PeterZ, I think you may be worrying kind of unnecessarily about Mabb. Mabb isn't a persona; no one ever meets him, he doesn't have a backstory or a set of character traits or behaviour patterns particularly associated with him, in the way that Zhevons has. All the times that we see actions being taken which will be attributed to Mabb, Merlin is clearly and actively operating in his own persona, just because no-one is going to identify him. Mabb is merely a nom de guerre, an obfuscating signature on a piece of paper.
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:30 pm

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Who's worried about Mabb? I worry that Merlin will develope emotional issues. Using Mabb as a tool to justify killing in retribution is a good way to funnel those violent emotions into one persona. Out of Merlin and into Mabb. Both personalities develope in a stunted fashion. Merlin may end up sublimating his desires for vengence into Mabb rather than dealing with them in a healthier way. Toss in the trauma of knowing Terra was destroyed and all sorts of neurotic and emotional issues may develope the longer Merlin uses Mabb as the persona for cold blooded killing and vengence.

Yeah, I know this is a character who will develope only what RFC let's him develope. As thorough as he is, Merlin will either develop that kind of problem or alter his behavior to avoid them. Not sure which is in the wind. Considering his inclusion of that sort of violence in the Harrington characters, something like that may be the case here.

Randomiser wrote:PeterZ, I think you may be worrying kind of unnecessarily about Mabb. Mabb isn't a persona; no one ever meets him, he doesn't have a backstory or a set of character traits or behaviour patterns particularly associated with him, in the way that Zhevons has. All the times that we see actions being taken which will be attributed to Mabb, Merlin is clearly and actively operating in his own persona, just because no-one is going to identify him. Mabb is merely a nom de guerre, an obfuscating signature on a piece of paper.
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by tootall   » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:39 pm

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GOING OUT ON A LIMB

SO...the snip points out that there were 41 other ships with Lightning. We don't really know where all of Eastshare's troops are.
I suspect that Charis is about to attempt the Church's worst nightmare. Cut the Holy Langhorne Canal by invading north from the Bay of Bess.
Maybe that's why Hanth is fighting so far east of Dohlar.
And the Mhog is concentrating on Green Valley.

Not too sure how they support themselves once they cut the canal- but hey-this is a limb I'm on here. :lol:
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:22 am

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Randomiser wrote:I don't think that Thirsk is going to try to recruit Maik for some 'Grand Plan' at this stage, quite apart from it being an extreme and unnecessary risk, the Admiral hasn't yet had time to work out what he wants to do or can do. It seems much more likely that he is trying to convince Maik to support his return to duty. After all, he isn't going back to command if the Navy's Intendant isn't happy with him doing so. OTOH Maik knows him too well for Thirsk to just pretend that the loss of his family makes no difference to his attitude, so he has to work on some story that will sound plausible to the Bishop or at least good enough to pass.

I suspect it might be something along the lines that he knows Clyntahn is out for his head and will get it someday, but the Navy is the only thing he now has left in life and it's interests, Dohlar's and Mother Church's can best be served by him spending his remaining time doing what he can for them, whatever he feels about the GoF. In other words, 'I'm resigned to my fate, but at least help me spend what time I have remaining doing something useful for my Navy, my king and my Church.' 'Clyntahn's a waste of air, but the Church will survive him. God and the Archangels expect me to do my duty whether or not *other people* are doing theirs' is certainly more believable than 'I love Vicar Zhaspahr.'
You make some excellent points, and for all we know, Thirsk may be attempting exactly what you outline. Thirsk certainly needs his command back to accomplish his goals.

I found the following part of their exchange to be the most telling: “You used the term spiritual councilor,” Maik said. “Should I assume you’re telling me this in my priestly office and treat anything you say as covered by the confidentiality of the confession?”

“No.” Thirsk’s voice was very soft, but there was no hesitation in it. “I want you to feel free to treat what I’m about to say in the way that seems best to you. I trust your judgment — and your heart — as much as I’ve ever trusted any man’s. And, to be honest, you and your office are . . . rather central to my present thinking. Your response to it will probably determine exactly what I do — or can do — to better meet those responsibilities of mine.”

“I see.” Maik sipped more whiskey, rolling the golden glory over his tongue before he swallowed. “Are you very sure about this, Lywys?” he asked then, his voice even softer than the earl’s had been.

“Staiphan,” he said, using the bishop’s given name without title or honorific for the first time in all the months they’d known one another, “I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life.”


Thirsk has obviously decided that he must return to command the RDN. We weren't privy to his entire conversation with Merlin, and it's possible that Merlin explained in rough terms the irresistible force that will soon be sailing towards Dohlar, and how the EoC would much prefer to avoid the inevitable bloodbath that would result if the RDN tries to go to battle against the KH VIIs and the City class ironclads.

I think Thirsk is testing the waters to determine if Maik will quietly pass the word to the navy inquisitors aboard the ships of the RDN that surrender is allowable if/when they find themselves facing a foe they have no chance to defeat. After all, if they'd run into a City class ship (or horror of horrors a KH VII) stuck on the bottom in HFQ, there would no longer be a western squadron of the RDN!

Thirsk is proud of the navy he's created and the men who serve in it, and he doesn't want them massacred for nothing. He may have a better understanding of the dangers his navy is about to face than many captains and commodores of the ICN, and possibly a few of its admirals! :lol:

Thirsk would like to defend his country, but he doesn't have the tools to effectively do that. His best course is to do his best to avoid a bloodbath so Dohlar will be more amenable to signing a non-aggression pact with the allies, which is the only way his country is likely to survive in its present form. (With King Ronald's abdication and a regency in the cards, but we can all see that coming.) ;)

Merlin outlined Thirsk's responsibilities at the end of the conversation we were privy to. "Cayleb and Sharleyan make no demands in return for your family’s safety. And they fully understand that not only were you raised a son of Mother Church but that you take your oaths to the Crown of Dohlar and your responsibilities to the navy you command seriously. A man of honor has no choice about that . . . unless an even greater duty, an even deeper responsibility, is used against him. That deeper responsibility’s been lifted from you now, yet neither Cayleb nor Sharleyan would expect you to act against what you believe are the best interests of your kingdom and your own soul"

If Thirsk accepts Cayleb and Sharley's position, then his oaths to Mother Church were thrown into doubt when the Inquisition used his family against him. His oaths to preserve his kingdom (even if it is under new management) and the navy he commands, (even if that means striking its flag at the first opportunity) have become his premiere responsibilities. The CoGA as run by the Go4, the Inquisition, and especially the Grand Fornicator Clyntahn has lost its right to his allegiance!

Of course its imperative that the Inquisition doesn't learn that Thirsk has accepted that inconvenient little fact. :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by n7axw   » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:32 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
Randomiser wrote:I don't think that Thirsk is going to try to recruit Maik for some 'Grand Plan' at this stage, quite apart from it being an extreme and unnecessary risk, the Admiral hasn't yet had time to work out what he wants to do or can do. It seems much more likely that he is trying to convince Maik to support his return to duty. After all, he isn't going back to command if the Navy's Intendant isn't happy with him doing so. OTOH Maik knows him too well for Thirsk to just pretend that the loss of his family makes no difference to his attitude, so he has to work on some story that will sound plausible to the Bishop or at least good enough to pass.

I suspect it might be something along the lines that he knows Clyntahn is out for his head and will get it someday, but the Navy is the only thing he now has left in life and it's interests, Dohlar's and Mother Church's can best be served by him spending his remaining time doing what he can for them, whatever he feels about the GoF. In other words, 'I'm resigned to my fate, but at least help me spend what time I have remaining doing something useful for my Navy, my king and my Church.' 'Clyntahn's a waste of air, but the Church will survive him. God and the Archangels expect me to do my duty whether or not *other people* are doing theirs' is certainly more believable than 'I love Vicar Zhaspahr.'
You make some excellent points, and for all we know, Thirsk may be attempting exactly what you outline. Thirsk certainly needs his command back to accomplish his goals.

I found the following part of their exchange to be the most telling: “You used the term spiritual councilor,” Maik said. “Should I assume you’re telling me this in my priestly office and treat anything you say as covered by the confidentiality of the confession?”

“No.” Thirsk’s voice was very soft, but there was no hesitation in it. “I want you to feel free to treat what I’m about to say in the way that seems best to you. I trust your judgment — and your heart — as much as I’ve ever trusted any man’s. And, to be honest, you and your office are . . . rather central to my present thinking. Your response to it will probably determine exactly what I do — or can do — to better meet those responsibilities of mine.”

“I see.” Maik sipped more whiskey, rolling the golden glory over his tongue before he swallowed. “Are you very sure about this, Lywys?” he asked then, his voice even softer than the earl’s had been.

“Staiphan,” he said, using the bishop’s given name without title or honorific for the first time in all the months they’d known one another, “I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life.”


Thirsk has obviously decided that he must return to command the RDN. We weren't privy to his entire conversation with Merlin, and it's possible that Merlin explained in rough terms the irresistible force that will soon be sailing towards Dohlar, and how the EoC would much prefer to avoid the inevitable bloodbath that would result if the RDN tries to go to battle against the KH VIIs and the City class ironclads.

I think Thirsk is testing the waters to determine if Maik will quietly pass the word to the navy inquisitors aboard the ships of the RDN that surrender is allowable if/when they find themselves facing a foe they have no chance to defeat. After all, if they'd run into a City class ship (or horror of horrors a KH VII) stuck on the bottom in HFQ, there would no longer be a western squadron of the RDN!

Thirsk is proud of the navy he's created and the men who serve in it, and he doesn't want them massacred for nothing. He may have a better understanding of the dangers his navy is about to face than many captains and commodores of the ICN, and possibly a few of its admirals! :lol:

Thirsk would like to defend his country, but he doesn't have the tools to effectively do that. His best course is to do his best to avoid a bloodbath so Dohlar will be more amenable to signing a non-aggression pact with the allies, which is the only way his country is likely to survive in its present form. (With King Ronald's abdication and a regency in the cards, but we can all see that coming.) ;)

Merlin outlined Thirsk's responsibilities at the end of the conversation we were privy to. "Cayleb and Sharleyan make no demands in return for your family’s safety. And they fully understand that not only were you raised a son of Mother Church but that you take your oaths to the Crown of Dohlar and your responsibilities to the navy you command seriously. A man of honor has no choice about that . . . unless an even greater duty, an even deeper responsibility, is used against him. That deeper responsibility’s been lifted from you now, yet neither Cayleb nor Sharleyan would expect you to act against what you believe are the best interests of your kingdom and your own soul"

If Thirsk accepts Cayleb and Sharley's position, then his oaths to Mother Church were thrown into doubt when the Inquisition used his family against him. His oaths to preserve his kingdom (even if it is under new management) and the navy he commands, (even if that means striking its flag at the first opportunity) have become his premiere responsibilities. The CoGA as run by the Go4, the Inquisition, and especially the Grand Fornicator Clyntahn has lost its right to his allegiance!

Of course its imperative that the Inquisition doesn't learn that Thirsk has accepted that inconvenient little fact. :twisted:


I have to admit that my mouth is watering in anticipation over this one. My guess is that we are looking at a Theisman/LePic moment here in which Maik will be confronted with the conflict between his own oaths and his sense if right and wrong,

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by shayvaan   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:17 am

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*** Spoiler Alert***









Just finished reading the sections available in the Amazon preview (1st half minus several one or two page deletions and two large 50 and 97 page jumps)
Nothing in the sections there are, show Thirsk or Maik again, but Maik apparently didn't react badly to whatever it is that Thirsk DID say. Just before the second jump, Admiral Raisahndo (Commander of the western squadron) and his officers are discussing the Cities that are entering the Gulf (or getting ready to) and while Raisahndo reflects on Khapahr's treason (although he has figured out what really happened) There is nothing hinting that Maik has denounced Thirsk at all.
Interestingly enough, the decision was made, just before the 97 page jump, that they were going to avoid action against the Cities and try to destroy the conventional elements where the Cities were not. This apparently failed because the last section (right after that jump) was Sharleyan christening Gwylym Manthyr. During her speech she refers to the destruction of said squadron. :o
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by WeberFan   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:03 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Yeah, that is the most likely approach Thirsk will take. Telling Maik now simply increases the risk of the Inquisition finding out. Not just because Maik will say anything, because I doubt he will. No, the more people that know of a secret the more likely the secret is exposed. Which brings up the key issue. How to keep this from the Inquisition?

Alvin Kaplan was a genius at this sort of skullduggery and he got caught.thirsk needs the seiijin network to assist or he will likely fail. If Merlin offers that help, I hope he uses the Mabb persona. That does two things; Mabb will keep all the participants that Thirsk trusts enough to let into the inner circle honest and using that persona for something other that old blooded murder. Segregating part of one's personality to that of a remorseless killer isn't healthy. Setting up Mabb for that purpose is flirting with neurosis or an extreme emotional disconnect. Incorporating that persona into more well rounded activities will help.

Randomiser wrote:I don't think that Thirsk is going to try to recruit Maik for some 'Grand Plan' at this stage, quite apart from it being an extreme and unnecessary risk, the Admiral hasn't yet had time to work out what he wants to do or can do. It seems much more likely that he is trying to convince Maik to support his return to duty. After all, he isn't going back to command if the Navy's Intendant isn't happy with him doing so. OTOH Maik knows him too well for Thirsk to just pretend that the loss of his family makes no difference to his attitude, so he has to work on some story that will sound plausible to the Bishop or at least good enough to pass.

I suspect it might be something along the lines that he knows Clyntahn is out for his head and will get it someday, but the Navy is the only thing he now has left in life and it's interests, Dohlar's and Mother Church's can best be served by him spending his remaining time doing what he can for them, whatever he feels about the GoF. In other words, 'I'm resigned to my fate, but at least help me spend what time I have remaining doing something useful for my Navy, my king and my Church.' 'Clyntahn's a waste of air, but the Church will survive him. God and the Archangels expect me to do my duty whether or not *other people* are doing theirs' is certainly more believable than 'I love Vicar Zhaspahr.'

Thirsk strikes me as a man who isn't necessarily devious the way Nahrman is. Rather, he strikes me as a meticulous, detailed planner. So IMHO, if he tells Maik something, it's a necessary part of another plan he's now formulating. IMHO, he needs Maik's support in some way, shape, or form. I believe that Thirsk's conversation with Maik represents a calculated risk on his part - trusting that the relationship he has developed with Maik over the (several) years they've been working together will reduce the risk. Perhaps not eliminate it altogether, but at least reduce it. But if he's guessed wrong? Yikes...
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Re: Snippet #7 (if I have it right)
Post by Peter2   » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:40 am

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I've just come across a quote from John Brunner's The Shockwave Rider which I think would suit Maik down to a T. It reads:

I stopped being an investigator years ago. What I am now is an inquisitor. And I've lost all faith in the justice of my church.
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