Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by packhunter   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:21 pm

packhunter
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 104
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:01 am

RFC has already stated that he has a few lighter weight steam engines in mind for things like Tanks(although this may have been for his Arcana serries he just tumtetumed and wouldn't say which). And that they are way lighter use less fuel and less water than people think.

TN4994 wrote:Don: I was going to suggest; we mount three air intake tubes in front (and sides for course correction by gated valves) of the gondola to feed the bottom of an air saddle that envelopes a furnace.
The air, thus being heated, is channeled from the top of the heat envelope either to the balloon for lift or tubed to the rear for propulsion (both intake and output). Anyone who's ever operated a Franklin Wood Stove can attest to the chimney effect. The problem I see with using the steam engine is the combined weights of the engine, the water needed for steam, and its fuel supply. My airjet design needs to be tested and I doubt it's practical for long distances. Maybe we can transport in ships and sleds; inflate and travel behind enemy lines with paratroopers? Or just descend and let the troops repel down ropes? Spotting balloons anchored to ironclads and using a flex tube to capture heat from the ship's engines may be more feasible (in calm weather) for Safehold at the moment.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by n7axw   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:50 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

fallsfromtrees wrote:
n7axw wrote:snip

Using oil rather than coal might make the idea practical. I wonder if instead of an engine, you coul force the steam out through a tube using a windmill style wheel to drive the propeller. Might be lighter and simpler.

Don

Sounds like a steam driven turbine to me. Actually, I always thought that that was one of the arguments for allowing steam under the proscriptions - steam is just water in a different form and water is allowed, it is just converted and making a wind, which is also allowed. How can that possibly be a violation of the proscriptions?


Steam turbine was what I was thinking. The basic thought was inspired by Howsmyn's accumulators only using steam rather than water in liquid form.

Since the prop would only be needed for horizontal movement, probably not all that much power would be required. Maneuverability could be done with a largish rudder.


Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by TN4994   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:56 pm

TN4994
Captain of the List

Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:41 pm
Location: Apache County Arizona

Weight may still be a factor. We'll have to consult with the Imperial College about air density, wind currents (also what we call jetstream), etc. Does our online librarian have a contact who can enlighten us?
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Tenshinai   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:07 pm

Tenshinai
Admiral

Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Sweden

The questions that needs answers to show just how likely balloons or airships would be:

Air density,
Air temperature,
Gravity

High air density makes any kind of flight much easier.
Low air temperature makes hot air balloons easier.
And low gravity, well that´s obvious...

So, do we actually have any kind of data for the above?
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by SWM   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:10 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

TN4994 wrote:Weight may still be a factor. We'll have to consult with the Imperial College about air density, wind currents (also what we call jetstream), etc. Does our online librarian have a contact who can enlighten us?

[librarian hat]
I could probably do some research on it, but I suspect there are some subject experts (or at least well-informed amateurs) here who can answer faster. :)
[/librarian hat]
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:33 pm

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

TN4994 wrote:Weight may still be a factor. We'll have to consult with the Imperial College about air density, wind currents (also what we call jetstream), etc. Does our online librarian have a contact who can enlighten us?

Quick search on Google for the info on Earth's jet stream, the altitude ranges from 30,000 ft at the poles to 56,000 feet at the equator. Probably won't be getting balloons that high, although it will be of concern when they start flying pressurized aircraft.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:08 pm

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Tenshinai wrote:The questions that needs answers to show just how likely balloons or airships would be:

Air density,
Air temperature,
Gravity

High air density makes any kind of flight much easier.
Low air temperature makes hot air balloons easier.
And low gravity, well that´s obvious...

So, do we actually have any kind of data for the above?


Safehold is overall colder than earth so that should help with Air temperature, but it depends whether you are talking Tellesberg or Zion for climate. No data on gravity or air density so far as I know.

If we are going to use oil as fuel anyway surely diesels with compressed air starters are the way to go for power/weight ratio. If Housemynn can do face hardened armour surely he can manage an engine block?
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by TN4994   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:24 pm

TN4994
Captain of the List

Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:41 pm
Location: Apache County Arizona

fallsfromtrees wrote:
TN4994 wrote:Weight may still be a factor. We'll have to consult with the Imperial College about air density, wind currents (also what we call jetstream), etc. Does our online librarian have a contact who can enlighten us?

Quick search on Google for the info on Earth's jet stream, the altitude ranges from 30,000 ft at the poles to 56,000 feet at the equator. Probably won't be getting balloons that high, although it will be of concern when they start flying pressurized aircraft.

Earth's Atmosphere I understand.
The question is "What is Safehold's atmosphere like?"
When it was terra-formed, was some sort of atmospheric generator installed (hidden from the populace (and overlooked by Merlin, because its not that important to his mission that others know of it))? Apologies to writers who have included Atmosphere Generators in their stories.
Back to Air Balloons. Ask any aeronaut about raising and lowering the balloon to change direction.
In the movies "The Mummy Returns" and "Ghosts of Mars", air balloons show ships hung from the dirigibles.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:47 pm

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Randomiser wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:The questions that needs answers to show just how likely balloons or airships would be:

Air density,
Air temperature,
Gravity

High air density makes any kind of flight much easier.
Low air temperature makes hot air balloons easier.
And low gravity, well that´s obvious...

So, do we actually have any kind of data for the above?


Safehold is overall colder than earth so that should help with Air temperature, but it depends whether you are talking Tellesberg or Zion for climate. No data on gravity or air density so far as I know.

If we are going to use oil as fuel anyway surely diesels with compressed air starters are the way to go for power/weight ratio. If Housemynn can do face hardened armour surely he can manage an engine block?

At the beginning of OAR I think there was a reference to gravity being 85% of Earth. This provides no information about the air density, since that depends on the quantity of air. Probably no air generator, as the native plants and animals co-exist along with the Terran imports, so the atmosphere was pretty much the same.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by n7axw   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:59 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

TN4994 wrote:Weight may still be a factor. We'll have to consult with the Imperial College about air density, wind currents (also what we call jetstream), etc. Does our online librarian have a contact who can enlighten us?


My point was that the balloon is being held up be whatever gas is being used at the time-- hot air, hydrogen, etc. So gravity would be accounted for. What would remain would be the inertia the propeller would be pushing against. The smaller the balloon, the less inertia and the easier the prop's job.

It would seem to me that my proposal would be lighter and simpler than a piston steam engine which might make it suitable for this application.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top

Return to Safehold