Submarines

Yes, but actually problems with "Vesuvius" were more with the realisation, not with the whole idea. This ship may be an exellent night torpedo boats attack supporter; in darkness, her soundless guns, suddenlu launching their shells on enemy ships, may completely confuse the defense.

Perhaps they could be utilized not so much as a warship,but as a commercial vessel. There are , IMO, good reasons to consider the idea,the very first of all being weather protection. The severity of a storm on the surface is much reduced several meters below the surface, allowing for a much higher survival rate,along with a much quieter ride..

Another is indirectly military: If they can't see it, then they can't sink it. And it saves having to have escort vessels, which could then be freed up for other, more useful tasks like trashing the Dohlaran navy and their pesky privateers.Not to mention causing certain individuals in Zion a great deal of constertation.("What do you mean, 'you couldn't find the Heretics supply convoy', Captain?!)

Power for drive and secondary systems could be accomplished by using hypergolic fuels in a diesel type block, much as England did with the WWI 'pig boats', which, IIRC, utilized a Hydrogen Peroxide- kerosene mix for sub-surface power.

And no electricity needed- could all be handled with 'valve' tech. But if it were, surely piezo quartz crystals could be used, especially underwater given the shielding mass of the water itself.

Sure seemed to work on the WWII ships for communication within the ship,( think maybe even WWI.. don't remember ATM)

It might even be possible to power a sub's secondary systems for below surface movement using air pressure.

This one kinda crosses over into the Zeppelin discussions... Not a good frontline weapon, not even a real good secondary, but the ability to move massive amounts of cargo might be able to make a real difference overall

Caliban wrote:Perhaps they could be utilized not so much as a warship,but as a commercial vessel. There are , IMO, good reasons to consider the idea,the very first of all being weather protection. The severity of a storm on the surface is much reduced several meters below the surface, allowing for a much higher survival rate,along with a much quieter ride..

Another is indirectly military: If they can't see it, then they can't sink it.

That would be feasible if Charis could build a true submarine, but I'm pretty sure that Charis can't build more than a "Submersible" -- capable of submerging to hide, but not capable of extended voyages/periods submerged.

Weird Harold wrote:

Caliban wrote:Perhaps they could be utilized not so much as a warship,but as a commercial vessel. There are , IMO, good reasons to consider the idea,the very first of all being weather protection. The severity of a storm on the surface is much reduced several meters below the surface, allowing for a much higher survival rate,along with a much quieter ride..

Another is indirectly military: If they can't see it, then they can't sink it.

That would be feasible if Charis could build a true submarine, but I'm pretty sure that Charis can't build more than a "Submersible" -- capable of submerging to hide, but not capable of extended voyages/periods submerged.

You think there aren't good reasons no-one in RL has built a commercial cargo-carrying submarine, even in wartime?

Ramming ships are a long established class of ships, what if instead of normal ramming, they are also able to launch torpedoes, they could do alot of dammage, especially if htey can get up close.

Randomiser wrote:You think there aren't good reasons no-one in RL has built a commercial cargo-carrying submarine, even in wartime?

There ARE commercial submarines of a sort. The Columbians have a couple they use for drug smuggling.

I suppose the Charisians could build and use a few in that manner as well (smuggling other things than drugs). Although I think there are easier ways to smuggle stuff than inventing an entire new technology. I continue to think that the most useful thing a submarine could provide is not military but yet another new thought process to chip away at the proscriptions.

Dilandu wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
Does this mean that the US had the weaker navy in WWII then and ever since? The US Navy has had submarines as a standard part of its defensive and offensive capabilities ever since WWII. As has the USSR and now Russia, China, Japan, India and Europe/EU. Subs are not something that just 'weaker' sea powers use, but strong sea powers as well. There's some things that subs can do that surface ships cannot and vise versa.

More correctly would be to say that the submarines usually more dangerous to the stronger sea power than to the weaker.

Considering that all major sea powers in WWII and afterwards use them, I would dispute that. Submarines have their place in warfare. It's not something any ship can do and they cannot do everything, but there is a definite place in modern warfare for them.

That being said, there isn't a place for them right now on Safehold. But they could be used to push certain concepts that would be of use at a later time, or help develop better materials technology and equipment.

Caliban wrote:Perhaps they could be utilized not so much as a warship,but as a commercial vessel. There are , IMO, good reasons to consider the idea,the very first of all being weather protection. The severity of a storm on the surface is much reduced several meters below the surface, allowing for a much higher survival rate,along with a much quieter ride..

That would be enormously useless waste of resourses. Submarines is a pretty bad cargo vechicles. The only situations were the cargo subs may be effective, is very special situations, like blockade running.

IF the Dohlarian navy would be able to establish firm blockade of Charisian waters (that seems... ulikely in the short perspective ), then maybe the Charisian Navy would start to build cargo subs, to mantain at least some communication with Chisholm and Emerald.

Another is indirectly military: If they can't see it, then they can't sink it. And it saves having to have escort vessels, which could then be freed up for other, more useful tasks like trashing the Dohlaran navy and their pesky privateers.Not to mention causing certain individuals in Zion a great deal of constertation.("What do you mean, 'you couldn't find the Heretics supply convoy', Captain?!)

It would be MUCH more simple and economically effective to just refit cargo galleons with supplemental steam engine, so they would be able to steam away from the attackers directly against the wind.

[quote="Zakharra"]

Considering that all major sea powers in WWII and afterwards use them, I would dispute that. Submarines have their place in warfare. It's not something any ship can do and they cannot do everything, but there is a definite place in modern warfare for them./quote]

The point is that the submarines are extremely restricted type of ships. They could only hide and attack. They couldn't possibly withstand the attack.

The effectivnesses of subs directly dependent of the probability of encountering the enemy ship at sea. If there is no enemy ships in the sea, the submarines are pretty useless.

In both of World War, the submarines were most effectively used agains Britain by the Germany; the main reason was that the Royal Navy were forced to operate in open sea, when the german navy largely stay in harbours.

The situation of Pacific War was different, but only because of japanese mistakes, that completely underestimate the effectivness of submarine warfare. It should be mentioned, that IJN didn't even try to use his submarines on the US communications - the IJN doctrine restricted them only to the fleet functions.

How thick is the ice in that northern channel that is the way to the temple? SO far we have talked about ice breaker ships, but if the ice is only an obstacle on the surface. it opens up possibilities. A ship able to sneak through the ice would be useful, the sub could release explosives to float into the ice to help crack it.