HFQ Official Snippet #2

Interesting that this other "new" group has been around so long; what is their aim, and what have they done so far?

The Bretheren had a clear (and slow) plan to influence clergy and eventually church doctrine, starting in Charis and avoiding notice from Zion. Now that the Go4 have acted and Merlin has appeared, they're kinda on the sidelines: yes, the preparatory work they've done has helped smooth Staynir's doctrinal changes, and they help oversee/advise who is let know about various secrets, but "boots on the ground" they're not.

Aviah's organisation seems rather more active ... yet what it's trying to do and how is wildly unclear. (MWW is very clever at releasing snippets with lots of information which hints but doesn't actually say a whole lot!)

Aviah is based in Zion. It now looks like "her" businesses might have longer histories than are apparent, and I'll bet some that she "handed over" just continued right along, despite what she told Merlin originally.

Other than collecting information on corrupt vicars, helping any reformist-type organisation (the Circle) they learn about and the odd assassination (possibly a new tactic, with the intent of weakening support for the inquisition) and building funds, what has this group been doing except surviving? Does it know something about the millenial event/visit and has something related to that as its major purpose?

Left wondering, again. Usual state waiting for new works by MWW.

I start this with quotes from the first snippet. But it is to discuss this new organisation.

runsforcelery wrote:
... <SNIP> ...
“Well, given the difference between the heretical church in question and what that pig Clyntahn and his precious Group of Four had done to Mother Church, it didn’t take me long to conclude that you represented a fairly emphatic statement of divine disapproval of their actions.” Her smile disappeared. “And, to be honest, I found myself wondering what had taken God so long.”

... <SNIP> ...

“I don’t know,” she told him very quietly, her eyes deep and dark in the fire-spangled bedchamber’s dimness, “but I’ve come to suspect that wherever you truly come from is also where all of the Adams and Eves who awoke here on Safehold on the Day of Creation truly came from, as well.”
...

I start thinking that Nynian's group was told a half truth about the day of creation. A kind of "Ark of Noah" story about an Earth gone corrupt and starting over on Safehold in the way God means man to live.

And that the group was intended as a support structure for the seijin who would appear if the church or society deviated from that path too much.

Which would make this new group very devout Langhorne supporters.


What is Merlin to say?
"Yes, I come from the same place as the Adams and Eves."
"Yes, I am here because this Safehold is not living according to the plan."
"But the deviation is not Clyntan's doing, it is Langhorne's."
"You were told only half of the truth."
"If anyone deserves the punishment of Scheuler, it is Langhorne."

Ooooops. Will Nynian be friend or foe?

One thing to remember is that this conversation was a "dance".

IMO Aivah was testing Merlin's reactions to see how much she could reveal.

She is sure about Merlin's other personas but she can't be completely sure about him especially about his goals.

Remember we don't know the full conversation between her and Merlin.

Hopefully, the third snippet will answer our questions about her group.

Tanstaafl wrote:I start this with quotes from the first snippet. But it is to discuss this new organisation.

runsforcelery wrote:
... <SNIP> ...
“Well, given the difference between the heretical church in question and what that pig Clyntahn and his precious Group of Four had done to Mother Church, it didn’t take me long to conclude that you represented a fairly emphatic statement of divine disapproval of their actions.” Her smile disappeared. “And, to be honest, I found myself wondering what had taken God so long.”

... <SNIP> ...

“I don’t know,” she told him very quietly, her eyes deep and dark in the fire-spangled bedchamber’s dimness, “but I’ve come to suspect that wherever you truly come from is also where all of the Adams and Eves who awoke here on Safehold on the Day of Creation truly came from, as well.”
...

I start thinking that Nynian's group was told a half truth about the day of creation. A kind of "Ark of Noah" story about an Earth gone corrupt and starting over on Safehold in the way God means man to live.

And that the group was intended as a support structure for the seijin who would appear if the church or society deviated from that path too much.

Which would make this new group very devout Langhorne supporters.


What is Merlin to say?
"Yes, I come from the same place as the Adams and Eves."
"Yes, I am here because this Safehold is not living according to the plan."
"But the deviation is not Clyntan's doing, it is Langhorne's."
"You were told only half of the truth."
"If anyone deserves the punishment of Scheuler, it is Langhorne."

Ooooops. Will Nynian be friend or foe?

DrakBibliophile wrote:One thing to remember is that this conversation was a "dance".

IMO Aivah was testing Merlin's reactions to see how much she could reveal.

She is sure about Merlin's other personas but she can't be completely sure about him especially about his goals.

Remember we don't know the full conversation between her and Merlin.

Hopefully, the third snippet will answer our questions about her group.

Drak, I completly agree with you.
And that is why I asked to have Owl's recording to be put on youtube.

But there are many avenues of speculation possible. I am just exploring one of them.

While waiting to be proofen wrong by MWW.

DrakBibliophile wrote:One thing to remember is that this conversation was a "dance".

IMO Aivah was testing Merlin's reactions to see how much she could reveal.

She is sure about Merlin's other personas but she can't be completely sure about him especially about his goals.

Remember we don't know the full conversation between her and Merlin.

Hopefully, the third snippet will answer our questions about her group.

Just curious, have you EVER known RFC to answer questions in a SNIPPET? That makes me believe whenever the next snippet comes it will be from an entirely different section of the book.

As for when the books comes, am I hearing on these threads the speculation for APRIL? or am I wrong there. I thought that RFC said that TOR was originally aiming for Summer'15 [Snippet #1 HFQ] but that that was with a June 30 delivery of final MS. Given a month additional and an apparent crowded publisher schedule, does it not look to be late Summer'15 at best?

There are times when I hate logic! I think I first became memorably acquainted with its inexorable progression was with Tom Godwin's MASTERPIECE of "The Cold Equations", and I fear that all of my hopes for an earlier release are just that, hopes!

As I said, "hopefully".

As for "logic", sometimes we make "mistakes" in the chain of logic but more often the problem with logic are that we've made assumptions (at the beginning of the chain of logic) that aren't passed on the facts.

As for "The Cold Equations" over the years plenty of people have criticized it in terms of the basic assumptions of the story.

IE What kind of spaceship is sent out with such a narrow margin of error regarding fuel that one extra person would doom the spaceship?

Charybdis wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:One thing to remember is that this conversation was a "dance".

IMO Aivah was testing Merlin's reactions to see how much she could reveal.

She is sure about Merlin's other personas but she can't be completely sure about him especially about his goals.

Remember we don't know the full conversation between her and Merlin.

Hopefully, the third snippet will answer our questions about her group.

Just curious, have you EVER known RFC to answer questions in a SNIPPET? That makes me believe whenever the next snippet comes it will be from an entirely different section of the book.

As for when the books comes, am I hearing on these threads the speculation for APRIL? or am I wrong there. I thought that RFC said that TOR was originally aiming for Summer'15 [Snippet #1 HFQ] but that that was with a June 30 delivery of final MS. Given a month additional and an apparent crowded publisher schedule, does it not look to be late Summer'15 at best?

There are times when I hate logic! I think I first became memorably acquainted with its inexorable progression was with Tom Godwin's MASTERPIECE of "The Cold Equations", and I fear that all of my hopes for an earlier release are just that, hopes!

To quote RFC himself :

the problem with a conspiracy embracing a multi-century schedule, he reflected, was that nobody, however gifted at skulduggery and paranoia they might be, could operate that long on that scale without having the operational faux pas stray into sight.

That is about the Mesan onion (in chapter 10 of SFtS) but this apply as well to Nynian org. They may have cloacked themselves under inquisition veil (even if that seems spurious to me, as only inquisitors actions would be covered), and it is probably easier to hide at Safehold technological level, but still, with at least 6 centuries of actions, several handfull of major faux-pas must have occured. And you need only one weak link to reveal your existence.

The major issue I see is commitment. You need very strong goals, perfectly accepted by all your members, for this permanent resolve without defections over time. And I dont see what that could be, I dont like the secret guardians curbing the excesses theory, because this would at least have passed in folklore myths.

RFC being prone, not to Chekov guns, but whole armouries from time to time, could Master Traynir myths, which are the only other ones we are aware of, be some echo of Nynian org ?

More you need something to counterbalance the strong faith of Safehold, but that could be simply some proof under the form of technological remmants.

It's the tiny snippets like these that force me to do things like write my own stories in order to work the frustration out of my system.

The way it's building up, I'll end up having over a dozen Institute Saga sequels (complete with cameo) by the time HFQ comes out!

PS - Thanks Sharon!

I think this snippet also casts new light on her request at the end of LAMA that she would need quick transport to Zion on short notice. I've been wondering for months what could be so important to require this request. We know her group is still passing on information and is assassinating corrupt vicars. But these don't seem important enough or urgent enough for an emergency trip to Zion.

Now we have confirmation that she is in a long running resistance group. We still don't know enough about her organization, but it was confirmed that a "written record" was left. I am wondering if anything ELSE was left. Could Aivah be in possession of an artifact along the lines of the Stone of Schueler?

If so, given her request, I am guessing that whatever she has will only work in Zion. And the biggest ongoing mystery in the series is "What is under the Temple?" Therefore my guess is that she has a key or device that will unlock the temple basement and perhaps give control over whatever is down there.

I think the best way for Merlin and the inner circle to proceed is to tell Aivah everything but be prepared to remove her, perhaps not permanently but certainly remove her ability to communicate with the outside world. And then they should prepare to deal with any unknown fallout in the best way possible. The group has just had what Nassim Taleb calls a "Black Swan" event. Further, they do not know and cannot guess what else she knows or doesn't know, another possible Black Swan. Too many of these will erode confidence in the ability of the group to keep hiding from the Inquisition.

She has been telling them a story about herself right along and until now, they have swallowed it hook, line and sinker with the very occasional and easily pushed aside nibble of doubt about how she can do all of this. She may well know a lot more about Merlin's rapid transportation than she is letting on and also about a whole bunch of other stuff that they all thought was their well kept secret. So, tell her the whole story, wire her up for sound and video and tell her that the consequences of betrayal will be terminal and see what happens. It may well be that the Charis and the war against the CoGA will benefit immensely from the additional knowledge that she can bring to the table.

It has occurred to me more than once that Merlin may not be in possession of as much of the whole story as he thinks.