KEW for Charis

abrax894 wrote:All these responses and I've been away for a few days. Ok, to start, the reason I said a nuke or nuke like strike wouldn't be necessary is because you can accomplish the same goal with multiple smaller strikes focused on a small area. Now, would it be looked at as supernatural, probably, but, and this is more my opinion than anything, winning the way is by far the MOST important thing at this point. Simply put, history is written by the victor. If Clyntahn and his ilk aren't around to dispute, or, more likely, to make shit up as they go along to fit their goals (yes I said shit, as the stuff that comes out of that animals mouth cannot be described as anything else other than bovine excrement, and that is probably an insult to bovine excrement everywhere), you will have a FEW eye witnesses to contradict things, but the communication abilities of Safehold will limit that impact. Yes, there will be SOME collateral damage, and people will get hurt, but would that number be more or less than the people that are now dying from the machinations of Clyntahn and his Sword of Schular? My guess would be less. Again, this is more opinion now and RFC can do as he pleases as it's his story.

Let's see, reading more HARDCORE sci-fi, like DW's Honorverse. Well, I HAVE. Multiple times. As a matter of fact, you'll notice in his books, that the really MASSIVE KEW's that he references are actually multi-ton, single or multi-drive missiles fired from ships at C fractional speeds. Remember physics? F=MA. The destructive power of a KEW relates to it's mass and the speed it is traveling, hell, if you take a 20kg chunk of metal and accelerate it to, say .4C, you can get a multi-kiloton equivalent explosion. But we're not talking about those kinds of speeds, we're talking about a fraction of those speeds, a very SMALL fraction of those speeds.

We've already seen in the books on multiple occasions, that Merlin can overlook/over think things. Take the substitution of compressed air tools for electric tools for instance. It was kind of a DUH moment there.

Anyway, I've attempted to counter all the arguments thrown my way, even the ones that seem to be repeats/ignores my previous statements. Yes, I'm aware that the Battle Steel that is used in the Temple' construction makes it very tough. I've already stated that creating your KEW' with the same material would offset that to a degree. I've also agreed that it would set back the Inner Circles goals to a degree, however, since they haven't really made all that much progress in that regard anyway, I can't really see the harm. The only thing they have really done is expose Clyntahn to be the murdering, conniving, genocidal maniac that he is. Most of the people fighting him still believe heavily in God, they have simply come to the conclusion that the Church no longer represents Him. So again, what do you lose by demolishing the Temple in a 'Supernatural' display? You end the way, or at the very least take a massive step toward that end. You disorganize you're enemies, the nations fighting you lose a majority of it's cohesiveness AND, for all those that are still sitting on the fence, waiting to see who is going to come out on top, well, I think that may just be the tipping point, don't you?

Tipping point or rallying point?? statement of divine disapproval or proof that Shanwei has escaped her prison? Who knows... Therein lies the risk of any attempt on the temple.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Tipping point or rallying point?? statement of divine disapproval or proof that Shanwei has escaped her prison? Who knows... Therein lies the risk of any attempt on the temple.

Don

Well, the Temple Loyalists would have a tough time explaining why God's own Rakurai destroyed their own Temple don't you think? Unless of course they want to say that God is not all powerful and that Shanwei stole the Rakurai from Him, that might get a good laugh. I wonder if they would be able to say it with a strait face.

Abrax894, you have ignored the little problem that David himself has said that you cannot break the Temple with anything less than a nuclear-scale strike. A series of lesser strikes won't do it. You cannot take out the temple without taking out most of the city. It is not that Merlin has made a mistake in not realizing he could do it--the author has decided that it cannot be done, and has told us so. I know you think it could be done--but the one who actually knows says it can't.

SWM wrote:Abrax894, you have ignored the little problem that David himself has said that you cannot break the Temple with anything less than a nuclear-scale strike. A series of lesser strikes won't do it. You cannot take out the temple without taking out most of the city. It is not that Merlin has made a mistake in not realizing he could do it--the author has decided that it cannot be done, and has told us so. I know you think it could be done--but the one who actually knows says it can't.

Umm, I saw where he said that a nuke strike wouldn't be viable, never contested that, but I must have missed where he said nothing short of a nuke would crack the the temple. I do remember him saying it would take a massive nuke to do so, but I took from that, that he meant 1 massive strike. Never do I remember him saying that multiple strikes could not crack the temple. Now, that being said, it IS DW 's story and I have great respect for him, but I've learned while reading his books, that what he says is just as important as what he DOESN'T say. I've actually read the Honorverse a number of times and have found that he likes to hint at things either earlier in a book or earlier in the series. Do I think he's hinting at this? Not particularly.

This whole post started as me opining that the Inner Council was taking too narrow of a view in the use of resources they had at their disposal. Especially now with the Temple Loyalists outright butchering people because they THINK they MIGHT have Reformist leanings, I think you could easily say that industrial sabotage, the sabotage of military forces in a certain area could easily be covered by the ongoing conflict. They don't need 'Advanced' tech to do it either. Explosives are explosives, just because you use an advanced compound doesn't mean your going to necessarily have a bigger explosion. We've already seen low tech timers used with low tech low tech explosives to make BIG results, (power mill anyone?) so what's stopping the IC from using the same tactics but in a more controlled and targeted fashion?

abrax894 wrote:

SWM wrote:Abrax894, you have ignored the little problem that David himself has said that you cannot break the Temple with anything less than a nuclear-scale strike. A series of lesser strikes won't do it. You cannot take out the temple without taking out most of the city. It is not that Merlin has made a mistake in not realizing he could do it--the author has decided that it cannot be done, and has told us so. I know you think it could be done--but the one who actually knows says it can't.

Umm, I saw where he said that a nuke strike wouldn't be viable, never contested that, but I must have missed where he said nothing short of a nuke would crack the the temple. I do remember him saying it would take a massive nuke to do so, but I took from that, that he meant 1 massive strike. Never do I remember him saying that multiple strikes could not crack the temple. Now, that being said, it IS DW 's story and I have great respect for him, but I've learned while reading his books, that what he says is just as important as what he DOESN'T say. I've actually read the Honorverse a number of times and have found that he likes to hint at things either earlier in a book or earlier in the series. Do I think he's hinting at this? Not particularly.

This whole post started as me opining that the Inner Council was taking too narrow of a view in the use of resources they had at their disposal. Especially now with the Temple Loyalists outright butchering people because they THINK they MIGHT have Reformist leanings, I think you could easily say that industrial sabotage, the sabotage of military forces in a certain area could easily be covered by the ongoing conflict. They don't need 'Advanced' tech to do it either. Explosives are explosives, just because you use an advanced compound doesn't mean your going to necessarily have a bigger explosion. We've already seen low tech timers used with low tech low tech explosives to make BIG results, (power mill anyone?) so what's stopping the IC from using the same tactics but in a more controlled and targeted fashion?

Someone might want to correct me here because my memory is a bit fuzzy. But as I remember the textev, Merlin comments that the shell of the temple is made out of armorplast, the same material used for warships designed to withstand nuclear fire in space. He notes that the the temple is built as strongly as some planetary defense centers. A missile with a properly designed warhead could take it out, but only at the cost of wiping the city as well.

The big thing stopping both Merlin and the inner circle is their unwillingness to accept the loss of innocent life on that kind of scale that would result from the action that would be needed to accomplish the temple's destruction.

The other issue would be how the OBS would react to the use of Terran Federation level tech in such a blatant way.

Don

Umm, I saw where he said that a nuke strike wouldn't be viable, never contested that, but I must have missed where he said nothing short of a nuke would crack the the temple. I do remember him saying it would take a massive nuke to do so, but I took from that, that he meant 1 massive strike. Never do I remember him saying that multiple strikes could not crack the temple. Now, that being said, it IS DW 's story and I have great respect for him, but I've learned while reading his books, that what he says is just as important as what he DOESN'T say. I've actually read the Honorverse a number of times and have found that he likes to hint at things either earlier in a book or earlier in the series. Do I think he's hinting at this? Not particularly.

This whole post started as me opining that the Inner Council was taking too narrow of a view in the use of resources they had at their disposal. Especially now with the Temple Loyalists outright butchering people because they THINK they MIGHT have Reformist leanings, I think you could easily say that industrial sabotage, the sabotage of military forces in a certain area could easily be covered by the ongoing conflict. They don't need 'Advanced' tech to do it either. Explosives are explosives, just because you use an advanced compound doesn't mean your going to necessarily have a bigger explosion. We've already seen low tech timers used with low tech low tech explosives to make BIG results, (power mill anyone?) so what's stopping the IC from using the same tactics but in a more controlled and targeted fashion?[/quote]

Someone might want to correct me here because my memory is a bit fuzzy. But as I remember the textev, Merlin comments that the shell of the temple is made out of armorplast, the same material used for warships designed to withstand nuclear fire in space. He notes that the the temple is built as strongly as some planetary defense centers. A missile with a properly designed warhead could take it out, but only at the cost of wiping the city as well.

The big thing stopping both Merlin and the inner circle is their unwillingness to accept the loss of innocent life on that kind of scale that would result from the action that would be needed to accomplish the temple's destruction.

The other issue would be how the OBS would react to the use of Terran Federation level tech in such a blatant way.

Don[/quote]


Nope you are correct. But what I'm getting at is even the strongest armor is weakened by a bit, small or large. To use some corny analogies, water running down the side of a mountain will eventually wear down the stone. Or take any kind of natural weathering. Well this has a bit more umph than a trickle of water. It would be DESIGNED to do maximum damage. He has fabricators at his disposal, why not use them? I don't care how tough the armor is, it will still give way eventually, it may take 10 or 20 hits, but these are things that could be calculated for. At the very least considered. If it took like 50 I would say that could be a bit much.

However as I was pointing out earlier, this post was more about not using or considering other basic applications that were NOT high tech enough to draw attention to them. The KEW was simply an example. Yes, I did read all the things that people had posted up about why they wouldn't work and perhaps I interpreted what was said by RFC slightly differently than others, but we're just getting hung up on this one thing. Perhaps it would have been better if I had stated this as a question such as 'What are some ways that SLIGHTLY more advanced tech could be used without drawing too much attention to the IC'.

abrax894 wrote:Nope you are correct. But what I'm getting at is even the strongest armor is weakened by a bit, small or large. To use some corny analogies, water running down the side of a mountain will eventually wear down the stone. Or take any kind of natural weathering. Well this has a bit more umph than a trickle of water. It would be DESIGNED to do maximum damage.

You know, Merlin might be the next best thing to immortal, but I seriously doubt that he wants to spend the next few million years love tapping his way through the Temple's armor. Especially since he seems to be on a 20 year deadline before the "Archangels return".

And as I understand it, the Temple armor is strong enough that trying to love tap your way through its armor is like trying to kill a main battle tank by shooting it with an automatic rifle. You MIGHT get lucky, but odds are that you'll either a) run out of ammo before you do more that scratch the armor, or b) the tank shoots you first.

evilauthor wrote:

abrax894 wrote:Nope you are correct. But what I'm getting at is even the strongest armor is weakened by a bit, small or large. To use some corny analogies, water running down the side of a mountain will eventually wear down the stone. Or take any kind of natural weathering. Well this has a bit more umph than a trickle of water. It would be DESIGNED to do maximum damage.

You know, Merlin might be the next best thing to immortal, but I seriously doubt that he wants to spend the next few million years love tapping his way through the Temple's armor. Especially since he seems to be on a 20 year deadline before the "Archangels return".

And as I understand it, the Temple armor is strong enough that trying to love tap your way through its armor is like trying to kill a main battle tank by shooting it with an automatic rifle. You MIGHT get lucky, but odds are that you'll either a) run out of ammo before you do more that scratch the armor, or b) the tank shoots you first.

Or maybe killing a battle tank by shooting spitwads at it... that would make a looong hard slough!!!

Don

One more thing!

The idea of trying to love tap your way past the Temple's armor seems to be based entirely on the assumption that the Temple WON'T REACT to an attack that threatens its integrity (ie, "the Tank won't shoot back if I shoot it"). However, Merlin's entire decision making process about the Temple assumes the Temple WILL react if it detects anything that could be considered a threat. Threats like SNARCs and Merlin's mere presence would be far below the threat level of even a love tap bombardment.

If Merlin starts assuming the Temple WON'T react to a love tap bombardment, then what's stopping him from walking in through the Temple's front door and killing whoever he pleases? If the Temple isn't going to react to an attack, there's no need to try to punch through its armor at all.

evilauthor wrote:One more thing!

The idea of trying to love tap your way past the Temple's armor seems to be based entirely on the assumption that the Temple WON'T REACT to an attack that threatens its integrity (ie, "the Tank won't shoot back if I shoot it"). However, Merlin's entire decision making process about the Temple assumes the Temple WILL react if it detects anything that could be considered a threat. Threats like SNARCs and Merlin's mere presence would be far below the threat level of even a love tap bombardment.

If Merlin starts assuming the Temple WON'T react to a love tap bombardment, then what's stopping him from walking in through the Temple's front door and killing whoever he pleases? If the Temple isn't going to react to an attack, there's no need to try to punch through its armor at all.

I'll respond to the last 2 posts. First, the rifle comment. Umm, I'm not talking about using a an ar15 firing a 5.56 round at an MBT, I'm talking about using .50 cal plus anti-materials rifle with specially designed rounds to penetrate the armor. The KEW's would be designed, probably from battle steal, to PENETRATE, like the difference between between a rapier vs broadsword or claymore. A nuke is very similar to the broadsword. You are depending on the shock wave and heat to do you destructive damage and it would take something very big to do the kind of damage you would need to destroy a hardened bunker. But you're not depending on the shock wave to do you damage, you using the direct kinetic energy transfer onto the outer shell to do your damage. A number of smaller, consecutive hit on the same area in quick succession.

As for the Temple defending itself, go back and read my previous comments on that topic. I'm actually assuming that the temple HAS point defense, which is why, once again, it will be made of a material that will be resistant to that damage and traveling at a speed that will minimize it's engagement window.

This post has become most repetitive and has gone far afield of where I wanted it to go.