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Gun evolution

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Re: Gun evolution
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:15 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:While I doubt that the Harchongese peasants troops will win against the allied forces, I'm suspecting that they'll surprise people.

It's a dangerous game to underestimate the "bad guys".


One only has to fast forward a few decades from the Russian Revolution to find a peasant army that destroyed a more technologically advanced army (with a little help from the Russian Winter.)

I definitely don't underestimate villains, but I don't think of peasant conscripts as villains; I think of them as victims.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by iranuke   » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:27 pm

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Personal opinion, this is still a war of logistics, and it takes a lot of logistics to feed 1.5 million men. I believe that the logistics for the Harchonese will end up lacking.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by saber964   » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:32 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:While I doubt that the Harchongese peasants troops will win against the allied forces, I'm suspecting that they'll surprise people.

It's a dangerous game to underestimate the "bad guys".


One only has to fast forward a few decades from the Russian Revolution to find a peasant army that destroyed a more technologically advanced army (with a little help from the Russian Winter.)

I definitely don't underestimate villains, but I don't think of peasant conscripts as villains; I think of them as victims.


And took horrendous casualties to do so, the only other peasant army to suffer even more casualties against a high tech foe was the Chinese army of the same time frame.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:20 am

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saber964 wrote:And took horrendous casualties to do so, the only other peasant army to suffer even more casualties against a high tech foe was the Chinese army of the same time frame.


Yep, Stalin pretty much summed it up, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

I cant' be sure without a lot of research about where the eastern front was exactly, but the big difference in WWI and WWII was the difference in a "war on foreign soil" and "defending the motherland" -- IOW, a war of agression and a war of defense.

The Harchong Peasant Army is hundreds of miles from home fighting an enemy that hasn't invaded their homeland; I expect them to follow the WWI Tsarist example rather than the WWII Soviet example.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by AirTech   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:54 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
saber964 wrote:And took horrendous casualties to do so, the only other peasant army to suffer even more casualties against a high tech foe was the Chinese army of the same time frame.


Yep, Stalin pretty much summed it up, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

I cant' be sure without a lot of research about where the eastern front was exactly, but the big difference in WWI and WWII was the difference in a "war on foreign soil" and "defending the motherland" -- IOW, a war of agression and a war of defense.

The Harchong Peasant Army is hundreds of miles from home fighting an enemy that hasn't invaded their homeland; I expect them to follow the WWI Tsarist example rather than the WWII Soviet example.


And logistics are the key to winning wars, if, as the church has demonstrated, you try to live off the land you strip it of supplies your army starves, like the Japanese did during WWII. The American Army was militarily and in terms of equipment not quite as good as the opposing forces in most cases, what the Americans had were an incredibly strong logistics train keeping a steady stream of food, ammunition and replacement tanks and ships.

If the Japanese lost a ship (any ship)they couldn't replace it or the crew, the Americans would shrug and place a requisition that would be filled in under a month in the same position. The Japanese had better tactics, better equipment (at least early in the war) but had really bad logistics (and a less than brilliant strategic leadership). This was because the Japanese were fanatical about actual combat so no-one wanted to be a supply officer and think about where the next box of rations or fuel was coming from. The Germans were slightly less intent but the same mind set was underneath with an expectation of a short victorious war (and that's what they needed (and didn't get)). The Russians traded land for time and similarly had a continent of back-up, but if the Japanese had attacked they would have been in serious do do.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:49 pm

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Hi AirTech,

The Japanese did attack the Russians in 1939, and they did get into serious do do. ;)

BTW, it's where Zhukov started his rise to prominence.

Even though the Japanese outnumbered the Russians initially, the soviets had far more tanks, aircraft and artillery, and demonstrated how to use it well; but there were few Japanese surviving officers paying attention to their strategy or tactics; just tactical notations to the effect that Japan couldn't afford such 'heavy industrialized extravagances'.

While true, it didn't prepare the IJA for what happened in 1945 when the soviets took Manchuria so easily.

Exactly what IJA equipment are you referring to that was superior to the USA's?

At Bataan, the IJA complained about the superior American artillery, which was repeated throughout the war, there were M-3 light tanks in the Philippines, and M-2A4's on up to M-4 Sherman's on Guadalcanal.

In regards to who had superior tactics, while Japanese night assault preparations were impressive, overall they failed miserably against the Americans, and motivated British empire forces where supply was maintained.

Regarding axis logistics the less said, the less damning; consider Rommel only had a major to run everything westward after the ships were unloaded at Tripoli [and thought it was the German general staff's responsibility to build and maintain his logistics] while the British started with a major general, and eventually made it a Lt. gen position, IIRC.

Japanese logistics don't bear any better scrutiny since both the IJN and IJA grabbed 2 Mt from the Japanese merchant fleet [6+ Mt] at the beginning of the war for their private use, of which almost 2 Mt were wooden coastal vessels and fishing boats, that had relied on another 4 Mt of allied or neutral shipping pre-war [~10+ Mt total] but only captured around 440Kt in port when they launched the war, leaving the rest of the economy to live off of around 2 Mt instead of the 10 Mt; so the Japanese home economy began to starve itself by 75-80% almost from the war's beginning.

Nor was it helped by the IJN and IJA seized ships passing each other empty or together half full to the same bases, since they refused to coordinate shipping and convoys until almost the very end of the war, the IJA going so far as to build dedicated supply submarines for its isolated island bases, despite the navy building bigger ones and modifying many more.

The Germans nearly shut down their whole economy during the winter of 1941, having sent so many trains full of supplies to the eastern armies, that were blocked by poor improvements ans repairs [adjusting the soviet gauge to German] inadequate sidings and RR building troops [a German deficiency going back to the Franco-Prussian war], supply and quartermaster troops to unload and deliver it, etc, etc.

The claim of German military professionalism founders on it repeated logistical incompetence.

The Americans may be Johnny-come-latelies when it comes to war, but the lessons of logistics were driven home at Valley forge, Morristown and a thousand other fields from 1775 through 1942, when the army was finally able to implement the lessons of the Industrial War College from the 1920's.

Given the SE Harchong provinces that the IHA apparently traveled through, the IHA is indeed still only hundreds of miles from HE territory, but will be a couple thousand miles away by the time they enter the republic.

Forex, feeding that many men, horses and dragons, means staying close to a canal since without one, just 400K men and a 100K horses would require something like 2100 tons per day or over 100 fresh supply dragons every day, for a month, ie ~3150 dragons, which I've seen no sign of in the textev so far, just to go 500 miles.

So keep an eye on the canals. ;)

L


[quote="AirTech"]*quote="Weird Harold"*[quote="saber964"]And took horrendous casualties to do so, the only other peasant army to suffer even more casualties against a high tech foe was the Chinese army of the same time frame.*quote*

Yep, Stalin pretty much summed it up, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

I cant' be sure without a lot of research about where the eastern front was exactly, but the big difference in WWI and WWII was the difference in a "war on foreign soil" and "defending the motherland" -- IOW, a war of agression and a war of defense.

The Harchong Peasant Army is hundreds of miles from home fighting an enemy that hasn't invaded their homeland; I expect them to follow the WWI Tsarist example rather than the WWII Soviet example.[/quote]

And logistics are the key to winning wars, if, as the church has demonstrated, you try to live off the land you strip it of supplies your army starves, like the Japanese did during WWII. The American Army was militarily and in terms of equipment not quite as good as the opposing forces in most cases, what the Americans had were an incredibly strong logistics train keeping a steady stream of food, ammunition and replacement tanks and ships.

If the Japanese lost a ship (any ship)they couldn't replace it or the crew, the Americans would shrug and place a requisition that would be filled in under a month in the same position. The Japanese had better tactics, better equipment (at least early in the war) but had really bad logistics (and a less than brilliant strategic leadership). This was because the Japanese were fanatical about actual combat so no-one wanted to be a supply officer and think about where the next box of rations or fuel was coming from. The Germans were slightly less intent but the same mind set was underneath with an expectation of a short victorious war (and that's what they needed (and didn't get)). The Russians traded land for time and similarly had a continent of back-up, but if the Japanese had attacked they would have been in serious do do.[/quote]
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by BelowAverageNinja   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:37 pm

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Exactly what equipment are you referring to that was superior tothe USA's


I don't know that he was specifically saying Japanese equipment, but rather making a sweeping genaralization.

However, in regard to IJA equipment that was actually okay, my Gandpa always gets upset when war museums don't mention the Nambu machine gun. It had a rate of fire comparable to the Mg42 (1000 rounds per minute) and was a pretty horrific weapon to have to face, from Grandpas stories. Well, he doesn't tell those stories very often, he just gets that look on his face that tells the story.
But, as was said before, Japanese logistics lacked the wherewithal to keep them in parts and operating effectively into the latter parts of the war, since they were also more maintenance intensive than US heavy machine guns.
Also, the zero pretty much out classed early war us fighters. They just couldn't keep up when the US started making better fighters every year, and just kept turning out more zeroes.
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:20 pm

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iranuke wrote:Personal opinion, this is still a war of logistics, and it takes a lot of logistics to feed 1.5 million men. I believe that the logistics for the Harchonese will end up lacking.


I agree. There are going to be some set piece battles where those peasants absorb some horrible casualties, but the real killer will be failure of supplies, more than likely due to allied raids on canals, etc.

Don
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:49 pm

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Hi DrakBibliophile,

Tough peasants can certainly make tough troops.

The Sylmahn Gap is around 3000 miles from the IHA, so getting the experienced troops back to give those lessons of the war would take some 75+ days to get back to the Langhorne canal if all went well, without the great canal raid's interference, so what would they teach?

The same stuff they were, even though they know the ICA is far superior to that?

There's no approved new doctrine etc, so the IHA will still be standing 3 lines deep etc, except those with the St. Kylman's, ~10% or less of the riflemen, or around 30% overall.

OTOH, they're still rather ignorant of the full capabilities of the ICA's artillery and mortars, whose maximum ranges etc are considerably more than they suspect.

Despite the IHA's sheer numbers I see lots of ways the ICA can defeat them without any newer weapons being introduced.

It'll be fun to see where the sub armies go.

How many will survive to return to Harchong?

L


DrakBibliophile wrote:While I doubt that the Harchongese peasants troops will win against the allied forces, I'm suspecting that they'll surprise people.

It's a dangerous game to underestimate the "bad guys".

It is possible that trainers know more that you're giving them credit.

Also, one possible advantage the trainers may have is that they won't have to "untrain" the peasants.

The peasants don't know the "old ways" of infantry warfare so they'll be more able to learn the "new ways" than would troops that "know what works".

Yes, the Temple trainers are "playing catch up" but they may be on the "right track".

Oh, while I doubt the peasants will win against the Allies, they may very well "teach" the Harchongese aristocracy a few lessons. :twisted: :twisted:

n7axw wrote:*quote="Weird Harold"*

Not wiped out, just defeated and disenchanted with the Harchongese aristocracy.

I think a better historical example is the conscript Russian peasants Tzar Nicholas sent to the Eastern Front in WWI. They did not defeat the Germans, nor even put up a good fight against them.

They did however, mutiny and then go home and support the Bolsheviks in overturning the Tsar and Russian aristocracy. :o

The Harchong regiments in the AoG are far closer to Conscripted Russian Peasants than American Revolutionary Volunteers.*quote*

I agree with Harold on this one. Then too, what has the Army of God actually accomplished except wiping out units armed with pikes? Kaitswryth's tactical victory against Taisyn on the Deify which was horrifically expensive and turned out to be a strategic defeat. That's it. Very little to suggest that the AOG trainers know what it takes much more than the Harchongese. They will make the Hachongese better disciplined and a bit tougher, not otherwise...?

Don
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Re: Gun evolution
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:19 pm

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Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post. You are spot on with your comments on logistics. I find myself wondering if the Harchongese will ever make it into Siddarmark. By the time they get to try, they will face a rebuilt Siddarmarkan army equiped with modern weapons as well as EOC forces in position to work around behind them and...guess what...cut off their logistics.

Don
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