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Navy "workhorse"

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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:44 pm

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packhunter wrote:Steel is in limited supply.

I don't think there will be any conversions of existing Galleons to the Rotweiler design. I think they will be phased out entirely, as will the Rotweilers eventually. Also rember that much of the Galeon fleet was made with green lumber. As a result its life cycle is almost finished.

I think that once the Coaling Stations are established we will start to see some truly massive Steam Freighters, posibly even Container Ship style cargo ships sometime soon. The only question in my mind is how much steel will be avilable to this project? Which will limit haow large a Ship can be constructed. If wood needs to be used in the primary hull form then they won't be of modern size anytime soon.


I could be mistaken here, but IIRC it was just the initial purpose built war galleons that had the problem of green lumber. Once RMN survived the initial threat, they were able to go back to properly seasoned wood for building their galleons. Some of the initial fleet at Armageddon Reef and Darcos Sound were merchant conversions, so it would have been fewer than 30 shps that were actually built with green wood.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:45 pm

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Demand is always higher than supply at a low enough price. To mitigate the demand for steel goods, building ships with the highest number of crew members per ton of steel used strikes me as a optimal. That argues for larger KH VII sized ships.

Whatever the ICN's needs for smaller ocean going ships might be met with sailing ships.

packhunter wrote:
PeterZ wrote:As I recall steel is limited largely because of bottlenecks in iron mining. The introduction of steam assisted machines, railed ore cart systems, better explosives and a host of new innovations will increase production significantly. Just how much iron ore will potentially be made available annually is still unknown. What we do know is that much more will be available than is now.



Agreed.

However it does seem that whatever the eventual Iron & Steel production figure are there will always be a greater demand then there is a supply. Just think about the iron demand that a rail line will need. The 1632 serries gives some good paralels for how demand for industrialization and its products does nothing but grow. EoC is no where near where they want to be yet with regards to resource and manufactored goods production. They're working on it, in fact they'll still be working on it up to the defeat of the Gaba.
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:47 am

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Hi PeterZ,

Actually we have quite a few new iron/steel works finished or about to complete, open or begin operations, such as Tellesburg and Maikelberg which are both as big as Delthak, plus the Lyman Lakes steel works which will be making M96's on 3 assembly lines in a month or two (to indicate some of its range of capabilities), ie almost quadrupling Charis's current steel production, so steel for rails etc isn't as limited as some think.

I suspect each member of the empire will eventually get its own current Delthak sized steel works given how prevalent iron ore is, while Delthak has of course become far larger by that time. ;)

L


PeterZ wrote:As I recall steel is limited largely because of bottlenecks in iron mining. The introduction of steam assisted machines, railed ore cart systems, better explosives and a host of new innovations will increase production significantly. Just how much iron ore will potentially be made available annually is still unknown. What we do know is that much more will be available than is now.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by Captain Igloo   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:39 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Actually we have quite a few new iron/steel works finished or about to complete, open or begin operations, such as Tellesburg and Maikelberg which are both as big as Delthak, plus the Lyman Lakes steel works which will be making M96's on 3 assembly lines in a month or two (to indicate some of its range of capabilities), ie almost quadrupling Charis's current steel production, so steel for rails etc isn't as limited as some think.

I suspect each member of the empire will eventually get its own current Delthak sized steel works given how prevalent iron ore is, while Delthak has of course become far larger by that time. ;)

L


PeterZ wrote:As I recall steel is limited largely because of bottlenecks in iron mining. The introduction of steam assisted machines, railed ore cart systems, better explosives and a host of new innovations will increase production significantly. Just how much iron ore will potentially be made available annually is still unknown. What we do know is that much more will be available than is now.


IMHO the main bottleneck is armor plate production. The Homestead Works near Pittsburgh had, according to an old ad dated 1912, an annual ingot capacity of 2.275 million gross tons, but produced only 12,000 gross tons max in armor and vault plate or 30 tons per day.

There is a lot of statistics in that old booklet: in 1912 Homestead (including the Carrie Furnaces, Howard Axle Works and the Schoen Steel Wheel Works) produced 16 gross tons per minute, consumed about 5,900 tons of ore and 2,000 tons of coal per day and employed 10,000 workers. Looks like Deltak on steroids.
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by MWadwell   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:11 am

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packhunter wrote:Steel is in limited supply.

I don't think there will be any conversions of existing Galleons to the Rotweiler design. I think they will be phased out entirely, as will the Rotweilers eventually. Also rember that much of the Galeon fleet was made with green lumber. As a result its life cycle is almost finished.


Do you mean any more "of existing Galleons to the Rotweiler design", as bear in mind we have already seen some conversions.

As to the green wood that was used to make some Charisian galleons - bear in mind that only the initial emergency build galleons were made using green lumber.

All of the ones after that have been made using seasoned timber.

Also bear in mind all of the captured COGA galleons that were made using seasoned wood.


In fact, considering the time frame, by now I would have expected all of the green timber galleons to already be out of service.....


packhunter wrote:I think that once the Coaling Stations are established we will start to see some truly massive Steam Freighters, posibly even Container Ship style cargo ships sometime soon. The only question in my mind is how much steel will be avilable to this project? Which will limit haow large a Ship can be constructed. If wood needs to be used in the primary hull form then they won't be of modern size anytime soon.


I agree.

But I think that this is going to be 5+ years before we can get this type of infrastructure (both the coaling stations and the freighters) in place.


Until then, I would expect to see ironclad galleons/standard galleons in service.
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:06 am

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Captain Igloo wrote:
IMHO the main bottleneck is armor plate production. The Homestead Works near Pittsburgh had, according to an old ad dated 1912, an annual ingot capacity of 2.275 million gross tons, but produced only 12,000 gross tons max in armor and vault plate or 30 tons per day.

There is a lot of statistics in that old booklet: in 1912 Homestead (including the Carrie Furnaces, Howard Axle Works and the Schoen Steel Wheel Works) produced 16 gross tons per minute, consumed about 5,900 tons of ore and 2,000 tons of coal per day and employed 10,000 workers. Looks like Deltak on steroids.


http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116&hilit=King+Haarald+VII&start=30#p94142
Each KH VII has 3,030 tons of armour. Delthak Steel works produced all of that armour in less than 1 year. Whether Deltak had larger Howsmynizing facilities than the Homestead Works or not is something only RFC might answer. What can be inferred is that based on the exisiting capabilities Delthak alone could armour 4-5 KH VII sized a year. When the other facilities come on line, that number will likely increase to upwards of 11-12 KH VIIs per year.

Assuming the Maikelberg requires 1/3 the armour of the KH VII, the ICN could build 9 of each class once the other steel works get up to full speed. Odds are that some of that armour making capacity will be thrown at building even larger ships.

If one reviews RFC's comments in the post linked above, it becomes clear that establishing a qualitative superiority in all manner of hardare is a high priority. Charis will continue to deploy bleeding edge technology and show just how cutting their superiority is by making their enemies bleed profusely should they decide to fight. Between the KH VIIs and the M96s the Jihadists will have a innevitably simple choice, surreder or die.

Since promoting an increasing superiority is high on the inner Circle's list of priorities, a big chunk of the ICN will be devoted to defeating shore batteries. That is the one area where the mainlanders will believe they have a chance to fend off the ICN. If the ICN builds dreadnoughts capable of defeating any fortress guns and a fleet that can steam into any port city and destroy it, the mainland will have no alternative but to innovate of acquiesce to the Empire of Charis.
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:44 am

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Hi Captain Igloo,

That booklet is a fascinating find, can you put it online somehow?

Homestead was huge, and Delthak may yet exceed it, if it hasn't already in total manufacturing workforce, but Homestead wasn't the only source of armor plate in the US, let alone steel obviously, and the navy's demand at that time wasn't that great, perhaps as little as ~100 tons per day in 1912, since congress was only ordering a couple BB's a year.

L


Captain Igloo wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Actually we have quite a few new iron/steel works finished or about to complete, open or begin operations, such as Tellesburg and Maikelberg which are both as big as Delthak, plus the Lyman Lakes steel works which will be making M96's on 3 assembly lines in a month or two (to indicate some of its range of capabilities), ie almost quadrupling Charis's current steel production, so steel for rails etc isn't as limited as some think.

I suspect each member of the empire will eventually get its own current Delthak sized steel works given how prevalent iron ore is, while Delthak has of course become far larger by that time. ;)

L


**quote="PeterZ"**As I recall steel is limited largely because of bottlenecks in iron mining. The introduction of steam assisted machines, railed ore cart systems, better explosives and a host of new innovations will increase production significantly. Just how much iron ore will potentially be made available annually is still unknown. What we do know is that much more will be available than is now.
**/quote**

IMHO the main bottleneck is armor plate production. The Homestead Works near Pittsburgh had, according to an old ad dated 1912, an annual ingot capacity of 2.275 million gross tons, but produced only 12,000 gross tons max in armor and vault plate or 30 tons per day.

There is a lot of statistics in that old booklet: in 1912 Homestead (including the Carrie Furnaces, Howard Axle Works and the Schoen Steel Wheel Works) produced 16 gross tons per minute, consumed about 5,900 tons of ore and 2,000 tons of coal per day and employed 10,000 workers. Looks like Deltak on steroids.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by Thucydides   » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:02 am

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Of course the SMS Emden didn't have to cope with satellite or long duration drone surveillance - the ICN would be unlikely to let a commerce raider set sail and given the Armageddon Reef precedent I can see it meeting a full battle fleet before its sea trials are completed.


My point was the SMS Emden, as a light cruiser, was just the sort of "workhorse" that the ICN would probably settle on. I rather doubt the CoGA has the means or ability to build or effectively man such a ship.

As for drones or satellite surveillance, I don't see that as a factor on Safehold for a long time to come...
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:17 am

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Hi PeterZ,

I'm not sure Charis's armor production is that limited, or will be, now that they know they can afford to expand their production, even if it'll take a couple of years to ramp up gold and silver production.

I suspect once Underhill accepted Merlin's vision, long lead items for more KH-VII's were ordered, which in part will keep the factories busy, and since the original plan was to build 7 simultaneously, more may start construction soon or already been laid down.

Bear in mind the cut to three was mid April in MTaT (chapter XI of XXII) and Nahrmahn's surprise was II of VI in LaMA added to the eleven in MTaT for about 2/3 of the way through July or just over three month's before they could start thinking big again.

Even if they waited until Baron Ironhill got Merlin's message by September (chapter II) to officially start considering ordering more ships, they've now had 4 more month's to begin construction of what may take ~9 month's, at least for the initial 3.

RFC has stated the ICN may put around a 100 KH-VII's into service, which it will certainly can afford now, though smaller cruisers like the Maikelberg also make sense.

Given Harchong, the Gulf of Dohlar, Hsing-wu's passage, West Howard, Desnar, and Trellheim, at least 6 active squadrons and supporting fleets will be needed post war, besides local squadrons for each empire member and reserve or home fleets (1 for Charis and 1 for Chisholm) plus a 15% refit and repair margin and ~100 is close enough.

The Comet class cruiser or something with more range etc might be built for messenger service or duty in the empire, operating in pairs for safety reasons, re-coaling at each end, and a sustained speed of less than 21 mph would enable message transfers in two days or less between Siddarmark and Iron Cape, while 23.6 mph would be required for the Emerald and Chisholm route (from Fallow Bay to Rock Coast Keep and back) to enable 2 day delivery putting the total message time to some ~70 hours from SC to Cherayth, while if the crossings between Siddarmark, Tarot, and Charis are limited to ~300 miles and the ship's speed to 25 mph, the total travel time for messages via the semaphore might be just 34 hours to Tellesburg, and Tellesburg to Cherayth in ~66 hours if my math is right, or about 4 days one way for SC via Tellesburg to Cherayth, with shorter distances and times for Zebediah and Corisande, all helping build an imperial identity by more quickly sharing news etc.

L


PeterZ wrote:
Captain Igloo wrote:
IMHO the main bottleneck is armor plate production. The Homestead Works near Pittsburgh had, according to an old ad dated 1912, an annual ingot capacity of 2.275 million gross tons, but produced only 12,000 gross tons max in armor and vault plate or 30 tons per day.

There is a lot of statistics in that old booklet: in 1912 Homestead (including the Carrie Furnaces, Howard Axle Works and the Schoen Steel Wheel Works) produced 16 gross tons per minute, consumed about 5,900 tons of ore and 2,000 tons of coal per day and employed 10,000 workers. Looks like Deltak on steroids.


http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116&hilit=King+Haarald+VII&start=30#p94142
Each KH VII has 3,030 tons of armour. Delthak Steel works produced all of that armour in less than 1 year. Whether Deltak had larger Howsmynizing facilities than the Homestead Works or not is something only RFC might answer. What can be inferred is that based on the exisiting capabilities Delthak alone could armour 4-5 KH VII sized a year. When the other facilities come on line, that number will likely increase to upwards of 11-12 KH VIIs per year.

Assuming the Maikelberg requires 1/3 the armour of the KH VII, the ICN could build 9 of each class once the other steel works get up to full speed. Odds are that some of that armour making capacity will be thrown at building even larger ships.

If one reviews RFC's comments in the post linked above, it becomes clear that establishing a qualitative superiority in all manner of hardare is a high priority. Charis will continue to deploy bleeding edge technology and show just how cutting their superiority is by making their enemies bleed profusely should they decide to fight. Between the KH VIIs and the M96s the Jihadists will have a innevitably simple choice, surreder or die.

Since promoting an increasing superiority is high on the inner Circle's list of priorities, a big chunk of the ICN will be devoted to defeating shore batteries. That is the one area where the mainlanders will believe they have a chance to fend off the ICN. If the ICN builds dreadnoughts capable of defeating any fortress guns and a fleet that can steam into any port city and destroy it, the mainland will have no alternative but to innovate of acquiesce to the Empire of Charis.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Navy "workhorse"
Post by Captain Igloo   » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:03 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Captain Igloo,

That booklet is a fascinating find, can you put it online somehow?



HERE
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