Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

Loren Pechtel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:So, Mabb was not born in necessity to avoid having one persona pop up all over Safehold. No one alive would have been able to report what the killer looked like. Merlin could have killed the people on the barge in his own persona and no one would have known better.

Merlin was being careful not to hop between places too fast--the alternate personas are to have different people in different areas rather than reveal his transport capability.

Re-read the introduction of Mabb. That persona was not just shell the PICA constructed to fool people into thinking this was another seijin. No, he created it to be the image of vengeance for the Inquisition and justice for Safeholdians in general. Merlin wrote a letter to Clyntahn in Mabb's persona knowing he would use that persona again and again.

That sort of compartmentalization might be an effective coping mechanism, but it is not healthy in the long run.

n7axw wrote:The thought of Maik detaching himself from the inquisition is fascinating. We don't have any direct pov stuff from Maik, but there are plenty of indirect hints pointing in that direction.

My impression is that the people aboard Prodigal Lass are already under inquisition control...hence already hostages.

Don
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In a sense, they are in the Church's control. However, that control is tenuous at present - it is in the form of three "armed launches" rowing around a much larger ship.

Were I Clyntahn, I would be seriously considering moving them to Zion, and other consderations be damned, so that "control" is more firmly established. Alternatively, I would move them to some more secure place in Gorath.

I think Thirsk likely would plan to foil either attempt. I also think such an attempt would effectively touch off Thirsk's own rebellion, in which he will be joined by a large majority of his navy.

XofDallas wrote:

n7axw wrote:The thought of Maik detaching himself from the inquisition is fascinating. We don't have any direct pov stuff from Maik, but there are plenty of indirect hints pointing in that direction.

My impression is that the people aboard Prodigal Lass are already under inquisition control...hence already hostages.

Don
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In a sense, they are in the Church's control. However, that control is tenuous at present - it is in the form of three "armed launches" rowing around a much larger ship.

Were I Clyntahn, I would be seriously considering moving them to Zion, and other consderations be damned, so that "control" is more firmly established. Alternatively, I would move them to some more secure place in Gorath.

I think Thirsk likely would plan to foil either attempt. I also think such an attempt would effectively touch off Thirsk's own rebellion, in which he will be joined by a large majority of his navy.

The first point is that Clyntahn, egoist supreme that he may be, is finding his sphere of action becoming ever more constricted. From an almost unrestricted ability as found in OAR, as Vicars, Gang of Four or Knights, he/they had almost unlimited funds, authority and forces (Temple Guards, Inquisitors and the various country military) to now. Poor, poor SuperVicar!

Next, when we have been discussing Thirsk's options, many seem to think that they are trinary, COGA or EoC or neutral. I add another option, that of a 'protestant' COGA, independent of the Temple and Charis, similar perhaps to the Church of England under ER1. That would meet Thirsk's need to remain COGA but outside the control of the Temple (while under the control of the Go4). That permits the local clergy a more comfortable option of post-war potential reunification. As for military neutrality, I think it would depend upon Clyntahn to do mischief or even attack. Lacking that, Thirsk could become something like a regent to the crown prince while permitting no military action or transit.

n7axw wrote:The thought of Maik detaching himself from the inquisition is fascinating. We don't have any direct pov stuff from Maik, but there are plenty of indirect hints pointing in that direction.

It occurs to me that I misspoke when I said Maik had sworn a personal oath to Zhaspar Clyntahn.

Maik is a Scheulerite and a member of the Inquisition. But internal evidence makes Maik an older man (his silver hair), and it's likely he was an Inquisitor before Zhaspar Clyntahn got elected by the Vicarate (with a little help from a vote count rigged by Willem Rayno.) So his oath would be to support and obey the Grand Inquisitor. He may not be the only Inquisitor who saw Zhaspar Clyntahn get elected and thought "This can't end well."

So beyond Maik, I wonder how many other loyal servants of the Inquisition might be having second or third thoughts about just who and what they now serve. The culture of Safehold is that sworn oaths are not broken, but aply enough pressure and they may just shatter under the load.

I don't see Maik doing anything overt that will make it apparent his heart is no longer in it. But anyone in a position like his has long since become adept at playing his cards close to the chest and not revealing what he really thinks. It's part and parcel of advancing in the hierarchy and gaining power and wealth. I do see him being even more creative in the dispatches he sends to Zion describing affairs in Gorath and what Thirsk and the Dohlaran Navy are doing, and covering up what he suspects Thirsk and others are really up to.

My impression is that the people aboard Prodigal Lass are already under inquisition control...hence already hostages.

Yes. Clyntahn fully intends to see all of them punished for their "failure" to deliver the survivors of Captain Ahbaht's squadron captured during the action in the Kaudzhu Narrows to Zion for his grand auto-da-fe. When Clyntahn doesn't get his way, he throws deadly temper tantrums, and the fact that what he wanted simply wasn't possible or that he got himself into the mess is not something that will cross his mind. Only Rayno's reminder about the potential morale effects on the still loyal supporters of Mother Church and the Jihad has stayed his hand, and that only so long as he feels he must to avoid fallout.

Thirsk can't protect them, and knows he can't. That was part of his conversation with Maik after Prodigal Son limped into Gorath Bay with the survivors of the transports and escorting galleons sent to deliver the prisoners to Zion. Maik states he knows they weren't at fault, and has already said so in his dispatches to Zion, but cannot guarantee that his superiors will agree. (And even if any of those in the hierarchy above his do agree, they won't say so where Clyntahn can hear them. They'd prefer to go on living, thanks. I suspect Maik has a good idea how Clyntahn will react, but can't come out and say so.
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Dennis

n7axw wrote:Well we know that during the War against the Fallen, seijins bopped around in their flying vehicles.

That seems to be part of the legend, at least for Seijin Khody. I do understand why Merlin adopted all his persona. But is it still neccessary? The church has already declared him demonic. Anybody inclined to believe that aleady does. For everybody else, bopping around in a flying vehicle would just be a seijin thing.

But the Church hasn't actually declared Merlin a demon. They've danced around it, and suggested he has demonic assistance, but has not stated he's a demon himself.

They can't. Their official theology holds that an actual demonic manifestation would get a divine response. Since there has been no such reaction, either Merlin isn't a demon, or the Group of Four are not in fact doing God's work. Merlin not being a demon is much the lesser of two evils for them, even though it opens its own can of worms. (And they can't admit he might actually be a seijin, either, as their theology and the Testimonies all make clear that seijins fought on the side of Light, so if he is a seijin, the Church is no longer on the side of Light...)

And while seijins were reputed to have Hikousen given them by the Archanglels to aid in the War Against the Fallen, precisely what those were are matters of vague legend. They certainly weren't thought of as machines. Safehold was carefully restricted to a largely Middle Ages level of technology in many areas. Those who actually saw one would consider it a living mystical object powered by divine energies, and not a work of craft. (Note the reactions of Nynian and Sandaria to the fact that the "servitors" described as returning to the Dawn Star after the defeat of the Fallen were not, in some manner, alive, but were in fact machines and the work of craft.)

And Merlin at least tries to be cautious about deploying the recon skimmer. One issue is not knowing just what might trigger a response from the orbital bombardment platform. Another is that it would be considered demonic by almost any Safeholdian who saw it. The last thing the Empire and the Church of Charis can want at this point is anything that might provide supporting evidence for Mother Church's claims of heresy, and the skimmer would be a whopping big piece of such evidence.

Merlin could use one of Owl's stealthed remotes to deliver written messages to Thirsk, similar to the way his "seijin network" got information to the Regency Council in Corisande. It could even become a two way conduit, with Thirsk sending back responses, though it would be tricky to set up and require a lot of preparation of Thirk first.

But I don't see any immediate need for any sort of regular meetings with Thirsk. The first thing Merlin and friends will do is sit back and wait to see what Thirsk does after Merlin's chat with him. Assuming any further in person meetings are required, Nimue might get into the act, demonstrating among other things that Merlin isn't the only seijin in the service of Charis running around loose.

(I do not see Merlin making contact is his Mabb persona. That one specifically executes Inquisitors and their more fervent AOG helpers. Those who meet MAbb generally don't live to tell tales about it.)
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

n7axw wrote:Well we know that during the War against the Fallen, seijins bopped around in their flying vehicles.

That seems to be part of the legend, at least for Seijin Khody. I do understand why Merlin adopted all his persona. But is it still neccessary? The church has already declared him demonic. Anybody inclined to believe that aleady does. For everybody else, bopping around in a flying vehicle would just be a seijin thing.

But the Church hasn't actually declared Merlin a demon. They've danced around it, and suggested he has demonic assistance, but has not stated he's a demon himself.

They can't. Their official theology holds that an actual demonic manifestation would get a divine response. Since there has been no such reaction, either Merlin isn't a demon, or the Group of Four are not in fact doing God's work. Merlin not being a demon is much the lesser of two evils for them, even though it opens its own can of worms. (And they can't admit he might actually be a seijin, either, as their theology and the Testimonies all make clear that seijins fought on the side of Light, so if he is a seijin, the Church is no longer on the side of Light...)

And while seijins were reputed to have Hikousen given them by the Archanglels to aid in the War Against the Fallen, precisely what those were are matters of vague legend. They certainly weren't thought of as machines. Safehold was carefully restricted to a largely Middle Ages level of technology in many areas. Those who actually saw one would consider it a living mystical object powered by divine energies, and not a work of craft. (Note the reactions of Nynian and Sandaria to the fact that the "servitors" described as returning to the Dawn Star after the defeat of the Fallen were not, in some manner, alive, but were in fact machines and the work of craft.)

And Merlin at least tries to be cautious about deploying the recon skimmer. One issue is not knowing just what might trigger a response from the orbital bombardment platform. Another is that it would be considered demonic by almost any Safeholdian who saw it. The last thing the Empire and the Church of Charis can want at this point is anything that might provide supporting evidence for Mother Church's claims of heresy, and the skimmer would be a whopping big piece of such evidence.

Merlin could use one of Owl's stealthed remotes to deliver written messages to Thirsk, similar to the way his "seijin network" got information to the Regency Council in Corisande. It could even become a two way conduit, with Thirsk sending back responses, though it would be tricky to set up and require a lot of preparation of Thirk first.

But I don't see any immediate need for any sort of regular meetings with Thirsk. The first thing Merlin and friends will do is sit back and wait to see what Thirsk does after Merlin's chat with him. Assuming any further in person meetings are required, Nimue might get into the
act, demonstrating among other things that Merlin isn't the only seijin in the service of Charis running around loose.

(I do not see Merlin making contact is his Mabb persona. That one specifically executes Inquisitors and their more fervent AOG helpers. Those who meet MAbb generally don't live to tell tales about it.)
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Dennis

Actually the Go4 did declare Merlin a demon. IIRC it was after the rescue of Irys and Davin.

Latest rumination:
IMHO The sailors on Prodigal Lass and those ashore in hospital are going to play a role in taking Dohlar out of the Jihad. I can foresee Clyntahn ordering them sent to Zion overland which will require a large body of soldiers for protection. The spark might come from the confrontation between Thirsk's Marines and the Army escort. The Marines (with Maik's support? ?) refuse to surrender the navy personnel then the Army escort refuses to fire on the Marines. Richter's Intendant seems to be trying to be helpful wnich might incline him to support Maik.
The big question for me is how to get the rest of the country to support the defiance of Thirsk and his Marines. I don't recall any textev concerning civilian morale. The population does seem to be behind the efforts to prevent Hanth from invading Dohlar.

Hohum, only the Celery-eater knows

saber964 wrote:Actually the Go4 did declare Merlin a demon. IIRC it was after the rescue of Irys and Davin.

I have to Look Stuff Up, but IIRC they claimed he had to have had demonic assistance. (Like the revolvers he used to shoot up King Zhames' guard to cover the exit from Zhames' palace.)

There's a difference between claiming Merlin got help from demons, like devices provided by Shan-Wei or her servent Proctor, and claiming Merlin himself is a demon. That runs into the problem that their theology holds that an actual demonic manifestation will get a divine response. God and the Archangels have yet to intervene on the side of Mother Church, despite her almost unbroken string of defeats at the hand of the Charisian Empire. If Merlin is in fact a demon, that should not be the case.

(And the longer that continues, the more folks will privately wonder if God and the Archangels are really on Mother Church's side, when they get their asses kicked every time they face Charis in battle. "Fight on and trust in God and the Archangels to save us? They haven't thus far. What makes you so sure they'll start now?")

They've also tried to claim he isn't really a seijin, as the Testimonies are unanimous about the seijins all fighting on the side of the Light. If Merlin is a seijin, what does that make Mother Church?
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Dennis

No, Merlin is indeed named demon in a Rayno internal monologue in HFQ. Not sure which chapter.

Dang posted too soon. Not sure now if it actually happened now. Searched did not reveal the Demon Athrawes I recalled mentioned.

DMcCunney wrote:

saber964 wrote:Actually the Go4 did declare Merlin a demon. IIRC it was after the rescue of Irys and Davin.

I have to Look Stuff Up, but IIRC they claimed he had to have had demonic assistance. (Like the revolvers he used to shoot up King Zhames' guard to cover the exit from Zhames' palace.)

There's a difference between claiming Merlin got help from demons, like devices provided by Shan-Wei or her servent Proctor, and claiming Merlin himself is a demon. That runs into the problem that their theology holds that an actual demonic manifestation will get a divine response. God and the Archangels have yet to intervene on the side of Mother Church, despite her almost unbroken string of defeats at the hand of the Charisian Empire. If Merlin is in fact a demon, that should not be the case.

(And the longer that continues, the more folks will privately wonder if God and the Archangels are really on Mother Church's side, when they get their asses kicked every time they face Charis in battle. "Fight on and trust in God and the Archangels to save us? They haven't thus far. What makes you so sure they'll start now?")

They've also tried to claim he isn't really a seijin, as the Testimonies are unanimous about the seijins all fighting on the side of the Light. If Merlin is a seijin, what does that make Mother Church?
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Dennis

PeterZ wrote:No, Merlin is indeed named demon in a Rayno internal monologue in HFQ. Not sure which chapter.

Dang posted too soon. Not sure now if it actually happened now. Searched did not reveal the Demon Athrawes I recalled mentioned.

Rayno might have thought of Merlin as a demon in an internal monologue, but I don't believe the Church has publicly stated Merlin is a demon. They still face the problem of "If he's a demon, where is the divine response we claim will occur when an actual demon manifests?"

Since God and the Archangels have been notably absent despite the Church's continuing losses, they are finding it increasingly hard to claim God is on their side, and if they claim Merlin is a demon and God pointedly sits on His hands, those problems get a lot worse.
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Dennis