***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

To repeat my objection to this being the Inner Circle:

It sill trigger terrible internal division in the Church which, without some peculiar kind of prevention, will lead to a colossal bloodbath.
This is as bad a "proving" Satan and Judas were the "good guys" to Christians around 1600AD...what do folk think that would lead to, hm? A bloodbath as the division would be so extreme.

So unless some colossally powerful thing prevented it, this revelation will result in horrible loss of.life and extremism.
At the same time as that is the LAST thing the IC want such.

South Harcbong, Desnair and the Republic are headed into extremism and war, it's inevitable.
The Church is the only moderating factor, the last glue preventing horrible fracture and atrocity because the wahoos in the 2 Empires and Republic are filled by hate arrogance and stupidity...which never ends well.

Clyntahn's genocides left a stinking charnel breath that is a corrosive evil that takes generations to wash away.
At the moment it will help."prime the pump" for atrocities and gives a blueprint for how to successfully commit genocide. Just as Auschwitz has left a terrible effective design for every murderous lunatic in our history ever after

Currently, the Church leaders are trying to moderate things, this will throw napalm in the works, not just a spanner!
That is way out of the IC's usual very moral and ethical behaviour!
I can't see a plausible way for RFC to write a way to avoid horrific schism in the Church with this revelation *shrugs*?

Eventually necessary: yes.
But with the current decent into a world wide war...!?

FriarBob wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:Consider what it said: Shan Wei did not Fall, and Chihiro lied!

That means the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and at least some of it is flat out wrong.

[...]

This is not something the IC would do if it could, because it would cause as much trouble for them as anyone else.

Not only would they, MUST they. Eventually. But the reason I so badly want to be wrong is I agree that it is not yet the right time to do so. Or that if it is, Weber has NOT laid the groundwork to prove it to his readers.

Nobody will be happier than I if this turns out to be the Mad Wizard Weber being his typical sneaky self. Nobody.

But so far you still aren't convincing me. Making me hope you're right, yes, convincing no. Because, among other things, part of that conversation with Narhman I referenced earlier on in the book talked about attacking the inerrancy of the Writ. Not only must they do this (eventually) they KNOW they must AND they have been planning for doing so. And given how long this book lasts, they have been doing so for over a decade... which means over a CENTURY in Narhman-time.

That alone doesn't prove they've found their proof and know how to do it right. But they most definitely could have. And they most definitely would have HAD to do something LIKE this eventually. I just hope they didn't actually do what they appear to have done.

One more thing to throw into the mix. Seijin Khody's journal might not have provided anything useful about whether Chihiro lied but there is one other ancient testimony that the Inner Circle DOES have and it DOES provide the full history of the War Against the Fallen.

[RFC, August 19 2011: "So far, you guys have seen only a handful of words out of his entire journal, none of which include his version of the extended fighting lumped together as "Shan-wei's Rebellion" by official Church theology and history."]

I don't think that evidence such as this is as easy to discredit as something re-constructed at the current point in the story.

I'm not saying that this is the only "fresh" evidence but there is still so much floating around in hints from the author, with NOTHING canonical having yet emerged in book text. If we are to speculate, we should do it with everything that is available to us.

wingfield wrote:One more thing to throw into the mix. Seijin Khody's journal might not have provided anything useful about whether Chihiro lied but there is one other ancient testimony that the Inner Circle DOES have and it DOES provide the full history of the War Against the Fallen.

[RFC, August 19 2011: "So far, you guys have seen only a handful of words out of his entire journal, none of which include his version of the extended fighting lumped together as "Shan-wei's Rebellion" by official Church theology and history."]

I don't think that evidence such as this is as easy to discredit as something re-constructed at the current point in the story.

Well, it provides Kohdy's history of what he did in the War Against the Fallen, which is not quite the same thing as a full history.

And Kohdy's diary ends at the point where he decides to go speak to Schueler about the evidence the Fallen provided that Chihiro had turned to evil, but Kohdy never states what that evidence was.

But as for being harder to discredit, no, I'm afraid not.

Remember that the Church did its best to destroy any physical evidence Kohdy actually existed. He's purely a figure of Safeholdian legend. They failed in that attempt because the then Mother Abbess was warned and Kohdy's tomb and his gear, including magic sword and diary were moved to a secret location.

Other seijins were known to exist (and you can assume at least some of the Episcopates in the Temple Lands devoted to St. <whoever> were named for seijins,) but none of them left behind diaries anyone knows of. (The IC assumed that Kohdy wasn't the only one who started to remember stuff from his former existence no Adam or Eve was supposed to recall, and that any records they left behind were purged in consequence.)

Just where would the diary (or stuff in it) have come from? The Vicarate can dismiss it as a forgery and plot by Shan Wei, and the SSK would have to "go public" and admit they exist and care for Kohdy's tomb to even begin to counter that. I don't see that occurring.

And for that matter, how would it be presented? Remember, no one outside of its membership knows the IC exists. If the IC thought this was any sort of proof and Schueler's appearance in his cathedral was a sneaky IC trick, I'd have expected a copy of Kohdy's diary to be part of what Schueler's apparition left behind. Just who would present that document as evidence?

I'm not saying that this is the only "fresh" evidence but there is still so much floating around in hints from the author, with NOTHING canonical having yet emerged in book text. If we are to speculate, we should do it with everything that is available to us.

I agree, but see above about what would constitute proof the Vicarate (and the hierarchy of the Church of Charis, who will have just a big a problem with this) would have to take seriously and could not simply dismiss as forgeries and lies. I don't think Kohdy's diary qualifies. There may well be useful stuff in it, but it won't help the fundamental problem of proving Chihiro lied and the Writ is open to question in consequence.
______
Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:Consider what it said: Shan Wei did not Fall, and Chihiro lied!

That means the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and at least some of it is flat out wrong.

[...]

This is not something the IC would do if it could, because it would cause as much trouble for them as anyone else.

FriarBob wrote:
Not only would they, MUST they. Eventually. But the reason I so badly want to be wrong is I agree that it is not yet the right time to do so. Or that if it is, Weber has NOT laid the groundwork to prove it to his readers.

Nobody will be happier than I if this turns out to be the Mad Wizard Weber being his typical sneaky self. Nobody.

But so far you still aren't convincing me. Making me hope you're right, yes, convincing no. Because, among other things, part of that conversation with Narhman I referenced earlier on in the book talked about attacking the inerrancy of the Writ. Not only must they do this (eventually) they KNOW they must AND they have been planning for doing so. And given how long this book lasts, they have been doing so for over a decade... which means over a CENTURY in Narhman-time.

That alone doesn't prove they've found their proof and know how to do it right. But they most definitely could have. And they most definitely would have HAD to do something LIKE this eventually. I just hope they didn't actually do what they appear to have done.

The best argument for the IC not being behind the Visitation is what you cited. The timing is wrong and RFC has not laid nearly enough ground work for Merlin to so suddenly change one of his core operating principles. Merlin and Archbishop Michel do not lie. Faking Schueler is a lie even if the faked Schueler tells the complete truth. He would be stealing Schueler's perceived divine aura to assert a truth Schueler never did. For Michel the act would be betraying the individual faith of Safeholdians by twisting that faith to serve his end. He is a true priest of God and that sort of betrayal of the God he so loves is not done without serious reasons. Reasons that are as yet absent from the story. In the end that sort of duplicity and betrayal will come out. Especially since the IC knows the existing tech beneat the Temple.

That tech under the Temple was kept for a reason. Chihiro must have known about that stored tech. That means he had some active plans for that tech. The Key was also created to serve a purpose. Schueler had plans that are still active because of the Wylsyns. The IC knows that these facts. Yet they falsified a Holy Visit by someone they know has active plans running on Safehold? Not only is that recklessly foolish, but morally suspect. Those active plans increase the likelihood of the false visit being discovered as a lie before Safehold is convinced of Langehorn's Lie.

The IC creating the Visitation just doesn't fit the structural consistency of the story or the menu of options morally available to the characters. It just doesn't fit.

PeterZ wrote:The IC creating the Visitation just doesn't fit the structural consistency of the story or the menu of options morally available to the characters. It just doesn't fit.

I concur.

I simply don't see the sneaky IC trick some folks assume it to be producing any results the IC wants.

The IC has always assumed a multi-generational effort to prepare Safehold for being told the truth.

The first step is getting rid of the Proscriptions, so that full technological development can proceed. That's being done by nibbling around the edges. There is the continual stream of new developments from Charis that don't actually violate the Proscriptions, but prove to make life better all around for those who adopt them.

They are aided by Bishop Paityr's attestations as Intendant of Charis that they don't, and Paityr has an unimpeachable record for integrity and honesty, even in the Temple. No one is likely accuse him of taking bribes to produce favorable rulings, and anyone who did would not be believed. (I believe there's mention in TFT of the Vicarate accepting Paityr's attestations as valid as the Temple Lands industrialize. He may be on the opposite side of the schism, but he's taking his responsibilities as Intendant seriously and doing the job they way it's supposed to be done.)

People are getting used to innovation and change and learning to think it desirable, which is the first step.

The next step, which will be tricky, will be things that do violate the Proscriptions. These will likely be developments Paityr never got asked to rule on that someone just went ahead and did. But look! The Proscriptions were violated but the sky didn't fall! Maybe the Proscriptions aren't the hard and fast rules everyone has always assumed and there's wiggle room.

(Of course, the devil is in the details as to what wiggle there is. When you have an OBS over your head you assume will drop rocks on you if you go too far, you proceed very carefully in testing the boundaries.)

The final step is going public and telling all Safehold "You've been lied to since Creation. God did not create man on Safehold. We were brought here from somewhere else. The Writ is a work of fiction and the biggest part of the lie, and the Archangels were no such things. They were human being like you pretending to be divine and using things you didn't know to do it."

But that can (and must) wait a long while. The entire planet needs to be unified, prosperous, and at peace first. It's a lot easier to process things like that if you have roofs over your head, full bellies, no one shooting at you, and confidence that state of affairs will continue.

The far more interesting question, if it's not an IC trick, is what whoever did stage it wants to happen.
______
Dennis

The answer to the question of what the visitation's authors desired orbits the Chekov's Gun RFC introduced earlier. The Key was made to interface with the Temple's tech. It's existence was kept secret from the CoGA hierarchy. One assumes it was kept from Chihiro as well. That fact describes two operating plans threaded into the events leading to OAR and the current story.

If Schueler did author his recording's Visitation, the affair is tied to the Key. If some contemporary authored the Visitation as a response to conflict between the last two archangels, the key is central to his/her plans. Mind y'all, the early SSK might have tangentially been involved. Whether Ninian knows about it or not is something to speculate over.

PeterZ wrote:The answer to the question of what the visitation's authors desired orbits the Chekov's Gun RFC introduced earlier. The Key was made to interface with the Temple's tech. It's existence was kept secret from the CoGA hierarchy. One assumes it was kept from Chihiro as well. That fact describes two operating plans threaded into the events leading to OAR and the current story.

If Schueler did author his recording's Visitation, the affair is tied to the Key. If some contemporary authored the Visitation as a response to conflict between the last two archangels, the key is central to his/her plans. Mind y'all, the early SSK might have tangentially been involved. Whether Ninian knows about it or not is something to speculate over.

Noting Dennis and PeterZ's latest replies:

Of course I'm flipping back and forth about who is responsible for the apparition of Schueler as the discussion goes on and I read one piece of textev or another (or RFC hints scattered about].

I don't really dispute what Dennis and others say that what was in Khody's Diary is not enough to wrap up a hit on the Writ.

Then again, the IC does have the Knowles Testimony.

What are your thoughts on the contents of the Testimony of Jeremiah Knowles in YOG 140, which RFC has said contains a separate account of the War Against the Fallen? By this, I mean could any use be made of it? It has great antiquity at the very least.

Now, to flip the argument, I just don't see anything OUTSIDE of the Temple having the capacity to do anything involving any use of TF level technology for the apparition without being detected by Owl. So this pushes our thoughts back to whatever is under the Temple.

One or two of you have suggested that Schueler could have arranged something under the Temple while a couple of us have doubted that.

In fact, you have a point. Schueler DID set up something under the Temple and left instructions for activating it with his Wylsyn descendants, via the Stone and the Key.

On this basis, I'll park half of my argument and concede that point!

However, no one has answered the major argument for it actually being the work of the IC. That is the textev from BHD that I quoted earlier and do so again:

By Heresies Distressed, PB p513, June 893. XVII (aboard the recon skimmer)

"First, we break the Temple’s political and economic stranglehold; after that, we tackle the lies in the Writ, itself."

The first has occurred. The second is what appears to be happening with the latest episode. The wording "tackle the lies in the Writ" are simply screaming at us right now.

wingfield wrote:Noting Dennis and PeterZ's latest replies:

Of course I'm flipping back and forth about who is responsible for the apparition of Schueler as the discussion goes on and I read one piece of textev or another (or RFC hints scattered about].

I don't really dispute what Dennis and others say that what was in Khody's Diary is not enough to wrap up a hit on the Writ.

Then again, the IC does have the Knowles Testimony.

What are your thoughts on the contents of the Testimony of Jeremiah Knowles in YOG 140, which RFC has said contains a separate account of the War Against the Fallen? By this, I mean could any use be made of it? It has great antiquity at the very least.

Now, to flip the argument, I just don't see anything OUTSIDE of the Temple having the capacity to do anything involving any use of TF level technology for the apparition without being detected by Owl. So this pushes our thoughts back to whatever is under the Temple.

One or two of you have suggested that Schueler could have arranged something under the Temple while a couple of us have doubted that.

In fact, you have a point. Schueler DID set up something under the Temple and left instructions for activating it with his Wylsyn descendants, via the Stone and the Key.

On this basis, I'll park half of my argument and concede that point!

However, no one has answered the major argument for it actually being the work of the IC. That is the textev from BHD that I quoted earlier and do so again:

By Heresies Distressed, PB p513, June 893. XVII (aboard the recon skimmer)

"First, we break the Temple’s political and economic stranglehold; after that, we tackle the lies in the Writ, itself."

The first has occurred. The second is what appears to be happening with the latest episode. The wording "tackle the lies in the Writ" are simply screaming at us right now.

I submit that the first part of your quote hasn't been accomplished. They need to fully eliminate the Proscriptions to break the stranglehold. Until that happens the Temple has a mechanism to stifle innovation. All they need is a charismatic Grand Vicar to make a cogent theological argument to halt technological development at some level short of electricity. So, the first phase of the BHD sequence is still in progress and the second has yet to be tackled.

The part of TFT referring to Merlin pondering what the actual Schueler would say about Nahrmahn's plan is the best evidence that part 2 is indeed underway. However, that plan may just be a more aggressive attack on the Proscriptions laying the foundation for the adoption of electricity in a generation or 2. Recall that the IC believes they have another 80 years or so for the next possible Return date.

So, the comment is a red herring.

PeterZ wrote:

wingfield wrote:However, no one has answered the major argument for it actually being the work of the IC. That is the textev from BHD that I quoted earlier and do so again:

By Heresies Distressed, PB p513, June 893. XVII (aboard the recon skimmer)

"First, we break the Temple’s political and economic stranglehold; after that, we tackle the lies in the Writ, itself."

The first has occurred. The second is what appears to be happening with the latest episode. The wording "tackle the lies in the Writ" are simply screaming at us right now.

I submit that the first part of your quote hasn't been accomplished. They need to fully eliminate the Proscriptions to break the stranglehold. Until that happens the Temple has a mechanism to stifle innovation. All they need is a charismatic Grand Vicar to make a cogent theological argument to halt technological development at some level short of electricity. So, the first phase of the BHD sequence is still in progress and the second has yet to be tackled.

The part of TFT referring to Merlin pondering what the actual Schueler would say about Nahrmahn's plan is the best evidence that part 2 is indeed underway. However, that plan may just be a more aggressive attack on the Proscriptions laying the foundation for the adoption of electricity in a generation or 2. Recall that the IC believes they have another 80 years or so for the next possible Return date.

So, the comment is a red herring.

Hardly a red herring. In fact, if Merlin ever plays red herrings, I've yet to see one.

The words of Merlin (who spoke them in the quote) were specific: "the Temple's political and economic stranglehold".

The political stranglehold was well and truly lost by the time of the collapse of the jihad. The economic stranglehold was lost by the time the Temple went broke as the war was lost. In fact, it is Charis that is closer to having an economic stranglehold now and is at least pulling as many levers as it can.

It does not require the demise of the Proscriptions to break the Temple's stranglehold - that is already broken. In fact, to break the Proscriptions, the Writ (and its "lies") have to be undermined. Merlin's quoted statement makes perfect sense.

The go-ahead for "the second stage of the nefarious Nahrmahn Plan", aka "Operation Androcles", shows that something is being initiated by the Inner Circle.

We agree that the second stage is under way.

Now the apparition of Schueler, whoever is behind it, is clearly an attack on the Writ and its "lies":

"The Testimony of Schueler, and I leave it with you so that all who see it may know I truly appeared before you, that this is truly my word. And that word, my children, is that it was not Shan-wei who Fell, but Chihiro who lied.

"Take that word forth with you, my children, for it is time the truth was known. Time the lies are set aside. Time for you to walk once more into the light of the purpose which brought you here."

This is clearly an attack on the lies in the Writ and the last sentence is unmistakably the language of Merlin.

The only question where the jury is still out is WHO exactly brought the apparition to pass.

Once again, I conclude with the reminder that the story of the War Against the Fallen, from a perspective other than that of Seijin Khody, and from another contemporary witness, has always been in the hands of the Inner Circle.

My point Wingfield, is that the Proscriptions are the hammer the Temple can use to compel the rest of Safehold to stop innovating. It can still be used to impose a stranglehold of Safehold's economics and politics. I believe Operation Androcles is aimed at eliminating the Proscriptions, not addressing Langehorn's Lie. They have yet to launch the second phase because phase 1 is incomplete.

I think the IC have waited to directly address Langehorn's Lie until The Return. Not waiting would very likely put them out of position to counter whatever the Returnees plan to do. I can see Operation Androcles addressing the groundwork to both remove the Proscriptions and support the proposition that Langehorn lied. I don't see the IC directly addressing phase 2 yet.