Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions

SDZald wrote:I don't know for certain but I do not believe this is part of Operation Androcles for a couple of reasons.

The first is, as I mentioned in another post, why would the IC use the order of Schueler to drop this bomb? After all their order has been disbanded by the CoGA, is widely held responsible for the world war and the root of corruption inside the CoGA. Most people would just think "here we go again those power hungry people are just trying to get their power back." They have NO credibility, the IC would have used a different Order to deliver that message to.

The second reason is Merlin has been VERY careful not to outright lie through out the entire series, with the logic that if he is caught in any kind of serious lie how could he expect anyone to believe him when it came to the Gaba?

Besides if you really wanted to start putting doubt into peoples minds it would be much easier to have Owl print up and distribute Broadsheets throughout the world asking a few simple questions. Are we sure the "good guys" won the battle of the Fallen? If the Bad guys had won than how could we trust ANYTHING, to include the Writ itself that comes from them?

Even being discredited the inquisitors still would be the force in charge of dealing with "heretics" spreading this testament. Also there is evidence that the inquisition had some audio video recording of schueler so they were some of the best situated to "know" what they are seeing is legit. Worst case scenario is the inquisition gets wiped out and cut out of the church completely after being utterly discredited yet again. So even the failure state of it winds up killing a few birds with one stone. The truth does start getting out not everybody may believe it but some people are going to think holy carp if this was legit enough to convince the inquisitors of all people it was true then maybe it IS legit. Once its out stomping it out would be highly problematic. Also other than maybe one person nobody is going to shed many tears if this winds up getting the inquisitors hoist on their own petard.

wingfield wrote:It is most probably something to do with St Khody but we have too little to go on in taking this any further.

The more one thinks about things, the more angles appear.

Having gone out on a limb to some extent the other day, I now have to play “Chihiro’s advocate” with myself!

First of all, one of our dogs that is supposed to have never barked is making a frightful din. If someone can suggest that the use of the name Operation Androcles can apply to something other than the Archangel Schueler, then I’d be most interested. I certainly haven’t seen anything else that comes remotely close.

Secondly, the linguistic shift between the language of the projection from the Key and the language of Safehold in YOG 896, reflected on by Nahrmahn in the Prologue to Like A Mighty Army (p20), is impossible to reconcile with the voice of the apparition, clearly understood by several hundred people in Schueler’s own church in YOG 916.

The image of Schueler is using contemporary speech. The recording is not ancient.

When I first read the words on page 723 of Through Fiery Trials, something was nagging at my mind:

“‘Do not be afraid, my children!’ Its majesty filled the cathedral, rolling down from its high dome, flowing outward along the nave like a wall of sound, and Samsyn … flung himself to his knees in awe as he saw the mighty shape towering in the sanctuary of his cathedral.”

I could not work out why the scene seemed so familiar! So I went back to our beloved author’s recent mischievous hints, posted on January 30. RFC pointed us clearly in the direction of the Sisters of St Khody. Then I saw the line:

“Left hand, right hand, man behind the curtain . . .”

Of course! The Seijin of Ahz!

Now, our beloved author is trying desperately hard to penetrate our thick skulls with heavy hints. On February 13, he reminded us that the church is “way outside Zion … on the other side of Lake Pei – and over 600 miles – from the Temple”.

OK, what is dangerous in Zion and in the vicinity of the Temple but fairly safe 600 miles away? I’d suggest that some examples would be image projection and sound amplification, together with the use of a tractor beam and a little judicious use of anshinritsumei. All of this is easily within the capabilities of our VR friends in Nimue’s Cave.

Now, nothing was ever said in the 2016 con statement of RFC, reported by Dennis McCunney, that the Inner Circle were surprised about the apparition. All that was reported was the reaction of the Church of Charis would be “careful neutrality, pending verifiable proof it was written by Schueler, sliding over into "There may be something in this..."”. This only suggests a cautious approach by Archbishop Staynair to the promotion of the story. It also says nothing about the reaction of the Church of God in Zion.

Finally, we know that the Inner Circle has the entire contents of Seijin Khody’s diary and knows what the Spanish text parts of it say. The Inner Circle also has the original text of the Writ from before the alterations made by or at the direction of Chihiro, as well as the true version of ancient events to substitute for the lies of Chihiro in the Testament delivered to the cathedral of Schueler. There would be no need to invent anything. The documentation to be used in the text of the Testament, duly imprinted upon the miraculous paper, is already in the possession of the Inner Circle.

So, having duly trashed my own arguments from a few days back, I leave you all as confused as ever!

Something that I have not seen referenced anywhere on the discussion is that this particular church is the resting place of Schueler's mortal body, laid here to rest after his soul departed to join Langhorne.

Anyone can argue that it's all Shan-Wei's doing. Anywhere else, sure. But here? One of the most consecrated, holy places in the world? The tomb of an Archangel? And not just any Archangel, but Schueler himself?

Not to mention that this being a tomb raises all kinds of amusing possibilities. Was it really a flesh-and-bone body they buried here? Because I'm certain no human doctor would ever dare to profane an Archangel's vessel through any kind of close examination.

wingfield wrote:Finally, we know that the Inner Circle has the entire contents of Seijin Khody’s diary and knows what the Spanish text parts of it say. The Inner Circle also has the original text of the Writ from before the alterations made by or at the direction of Chihiro, as well as the true version of ancient events to substitute for the lies of Chihiro in the Testament delivered to the cathedral of Schueler. There would be no need to invent anything. The documentation to be used in the text of the Testament, duly imprinted upon the miraculous paper, is already in the possession of the Inner Circle.

I can't agree,

I concur that whatever it was was not a recording from way back when, with linguistic drift just one reason.

I concur that the IC theoretically has the tech to arrange that demonstration in Schueler's cathedral.

But the intended audience for the Testimony of Schueler is the Vicarate in the Temple. This doctrinal grenade with the pin pulled is being tossed at them. It is explicitly stating that at least part of the Holy Writ simply isn't true.

Schueler's apparition claims Shan Wei did not Fall and that Chihiro lied. The Testimony will present Scheuler's proof of those assertions. What proof will that be?

While the IC knows courtesy of Kohdy's diary that the Fallen who defeated him in combat presented evidence Kohdy could not simply dismiss that Chihiro had turned to evil. Kohdy did not state, even in the portions of his diary written in Espanol, just what that evidence was. He only stated it shook him badly enough to go to Zion and talk directly to Schueler about it, and that he was killed in Zion.

The last thing the Vicarate will believe is that Shan Wei did not Fall and Chihiro lied. The Testimony will need to provide evidence for those claims that they must take seriously and cannot simply dismiss as a plot by Shan Wei.

At bare minimum, the IC would need the evidence presented to Kohdy by the Fallen, and they don't have it.

Kohdy's diary and the original Writ before the books of Chihiro and Schueler were added won't do. Both of those can be dismissed as as forgeries and part of Shan Wei's plot. It must be evidence that does not contradict records in the Temple for the period from the destruction of Langhorne's HQ though the end of the War Against the Fallen. That's precisely the period the IC does not have records for, and will have no idea what records the Temple will have.

If proof the Vicarate must take seriously is not provided, there is no point in making the assertion. I simply don't think the IC has that sort of proof, and they are smart enough to know it.
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Dennis

Completely spit balling here, and this may be quickly squished by you all, but a theory I have not seen is the idea of an AI having woken up and TRYING TO REACH OUT TO THE OTHER OBVIOUS TECH.

Hear me out. You are the 1000 year plan of Schueler. You wake up, you start scanning, and you realize crap has happened. Lots of crap. Being what you are, you realize that there has to be parties involved that are familiar with Fed Tech, possibly another AI active in the world, and 99% certainty that there is a PICA, based on these seijin activities.

You have been tasked with making sure Schueler's 1000 year plan stays on track. You don't have a PICA. You do have the ability to make miraculous appearances.

How do you get the attention of the other advanced technical mind, and also not bring societal belief and religious authorities down around your head?

I've had a hard time forming this idea without it being a novel itself, and I don't have time to write the whole thing. But...

There is a part of me that wonders what is in that miraculous book, and would a smart Fed Tech AI be able to embed something that another Fed Tech can pick up on. Hidden Code. Steganography. Hell, let's be evil and say a virus that writes itself as it is read by the AI.

Heck, even today printers can embed hidden info for governments to pick up what printer where was being used for nefarious purposes, why not messages?

This is an idea I am still fleshing out, honestly.

Magistos wrote:Completely spit balling here, and this may be quickly squished by you all, but a theory I have not seen is the idea of an AI having woken up and TRYING TO REACH OUT TO THE OTHER OBVIOUS TECH.

Hear me out. You are the 1000 year plan of Schueler. You wake up, you start scanning, and you realize crap has happened. Lots of crap. Being what you are, you realize that there has to be parties involved that are familiar with Fed Tech, possibly another AI active in the world, and 99% certainty that there is a PICA, based on these seijin activities.

An interesting notion, but I doubt it.

I am assuming the apparation that appeared in Schueler's cathedral on the day commemorating when his soul left his worn out mortal body that had housed it for so long and returned to Heaven to be with God was Schueler's doing and not a sneaky IC trick. The cathedral was raised to house the tomb containing the mortal body. If the tomb and the cathedral raised over it was built by the sort of servitors Chihiro used to contruct the Temple after the destruction of Langhorne's HQ, all manner of things might have been tucked away in the process.

One question is whether that apparation was a recording made by Schueler before his death, and the Testimony of Schueler that accompanied it was also created centuries ago. I consider that highly unlikely. Schueler talks about terrible deeds any godly person must reject being done in his name, but not with his approval. (That statement is a great relief to the prients of his order present, as proof that Zhaspar Clyntahn had perverted Schueler's teachings in the service of atrocities. The relief is short lived when he gets to his next bombshall.) For this to be a recording made centuries previously, with a Testimony manufactured at the same time, the terrible deeds don in his name would have been in the time period btween the destruction on Langhorne's HQ and the end of the War Against the Fallen. No such tales are in the existing records (written by Chihiro). This pretty much means his shade is referring to the events of the Jihad.

But if that's the case, just what is that apparition of Schueler?

The obvious notion is that the VR unit in Nimue's Cave where Narhmann lives is not the only one on Safehold, and that a recording of Schueler's personality was made before he died and downloaded to one. It has been awakened in the thousand year timeframe Paityr's family tradition gave for when the Archangels would return, and this is a manner in which they might. Such a VR unit might be tucked away under Schueler's cathedral, together with a fabrication unit capable of producing the Testimony of Schueler in a form identical to the master copies of the Holy Writ in the Temple, and the necessary gear to produce the apparation seen and heard by the faithful in the cathedral. (And it makes you wonder whether other VR units with recorings of Archangels exist elsewhere, like under the Temple.)

Schueler's statement, and the book accompanies it, will be a doctrinal grenade whose target is the Vicarate in the Temple. Schueler's shade claims Shan Wei the Bright did not Fall, but was destroyed by the true betrayer of God's plan for refusing to turn aside from the great charge to prepare Safehold for mankind, and that Chihiro lied. These claims basically state that the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and that at least some of it is false. If the Testimony contains proof of those assertions that the Vicarate must take seriously and cannot simply dismiss as a plot by Shan Wei, you can picture many Vicars doing wyverrns minus heads impressions as they grapple with it.

I don't see Schueler reaching out to other TF tech users. In particular, I don't see him deciding PICAs must be in the mix. Where would they have come from? PICAs would have been handy during the War Against the Fallen, but were not used, because Chihiro's folks couldn't make them. Plans for PICA construction were not part of the data store sent along with Operation Ark. Owl could only make Nimue's PICA because it had Merlin's to examine and reverse engineer.

Events on Safehold since his personality was downloaded into a VR unit would indicate increasing basic knowledge and a rapidly expanding level of industrialization, but all of it is still technically compliant with the Proscriptions. I don't see his disembodied personality making the leap from that to TF level tech.

The more interesting question for me is what Schueler is referring to when he states Chihiro lied. This bring us back to Seijin Kohdy, who was defeated by one of the Fallen, who didn't kill him, but instead presented evidence Kohdy could not dismiss that Chihiro had turned to evil. Kohdy did not write down in his journal what that evidence was - only that it shook him enough to make him go to Zion to talk to Schueler about it. We know from the Sisters of St. Kohdy that he was killed in Zion, but have no knowledge of whether he actually spoke to Schueler before he died. My guess is that he did, and what he said caused Schueler to look more carefully at what Chihiro was up to.

If Schueler concluded that the information the Fallen gave Kohdy was accurate, what could he do? Publicly opposing Chihiro at that point would be a good way for him to get dead, too, since a fair number of the remaining command crew were loyal to Chihiro and might not have balked at killing another Archangel. Any counter measure he might attempt would need to be more subtle and longer term, set to trigger long after both he and Chihiro were dead.

My guess is his apparition appearing in his cathedral is his counter measure.

Another fascinating question if there is a VR unit hosting a copy of Schueler's personality is whether Owl can communicate with it. The notion of the IC talking directly to Schueler's disembodied personality is a tickle, as they might just find they have commonality of interest and become allies.
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Dennis

Plus there are the events surrounding the formation of the SSK.

Khody dies, and somebody declares him a saint. Schueler presumably, at least to start the process.

Then somebody decides that there should be an order to preserve his memory. Possibly Schueler, possibly somebody else.

Somebody knows of the existence of his secret diary, ha the ability to acquire it, and provides it to the he sisters. Schueler is certainly a possibility.

With the departure of the Archangels, somebody with access to the OBS decides to obliterate the sisters and Khody’s memory. One of Chihiro’s people acting on orders from Chihiro to be executed after Schueler’d death?

But the sisters are forewarned....

Sound to me like some sort of factional dispute with Khody’s adherents (Schueler?) on one side, and possibly Chihiro’s adherents on the other.

In such a scenario, the SSK with the diary, the Stone and the Key, and the apparition with the Testimony could all be a master plan of Schueler to correct what either always believed, or come to believe was an error. And an AI in the Cathedral could easily provide the apparition - look at what Owl is capable of.

Consider carefully the name of the number two man in the procession, the fellow whose presence was surprising, Schueler's order not being uniformly loved. Truscott, to use his original name, was responsible for what? Patient cultivation?

Just another handful of mashed potatoes to throw at the wall...

Now, assuming the Vision was Schueler, stored in a VR unit on low power.... (not a given by any means, but an interesting starting point.)

Why Would HE be the ONLY personality stored there? ANY person from pre-creation could have had a personality download made. Like, say, Sar Major Cody Cortasair?

Spoz wrote:Plus there are the events surrounding the formation of the SSK.

Khody dies, and somebody declares him a saint. Schueler presumably, at least to start the process.

Then somebody decides that there should be an order to preserve his memory. Possibly Schueler, possibly somebody else.

Schueler doesn't have to be the instigator, though he would doubtless concur in it. There are a fair number of St. <whoever> Episcopates in the Temple Lands. We don't know who/what they were but an assortment of them were probably Seijins.

The more interesting question is why records of Kohdy were eliminated, and he survived as a figure of legend with no historical record to prove his existence. The fact he was a threat to Chihiro is the likely answer.

Somebody knows of the existence of his secret diary, ha the ability to acquire it, and provides it to the he sisters. Schueler is certainly a possibility.

Kohdy probably brought his diary to Zion when he came to see Schueler, It would be part of the personal effects that would go in his tomb along with his body. The Sisters also possessed his armor, battle steel sword and other things. Whether anyone aside from the Sisters read his diary is an open question. Schueler might have seen that it was included in what was given to the Sisters.

With the departure of the Archangels, somebody with access to the OBS decides to obliterate the sisters and Khody’s memory. One of Chihiro’s people acting on orders from Chihiro to be executed after Schueler’s death?

But the sisters are forewarned....

Yes, they did get a warning, and quietly moved Kohdy's tomb and possessions to a new location. The destruction of the original abbey didn't get what needed to be destroyed.

At that point, the last of the lesser angels were waiting for all of the original Adams and Eves to die so they could go through and edit the Testimonies to remove inconsistencies that didn't fit the official line when no one who actually remembered stuff from the period would be around to say different. (And IIRC, there are no other surviving Seijin diaries or testimonies. Kohdy likely wasn't the only one who started to remember things Bedard's mindwashing was supposed to suppress when they became Seijins.

I think it's a safe bet that the lesser angels still around were younger folks who would still be alive to do it. The Archangels were senior members of the command crew who would have been older when Operation Ark departed Earth, and it took 40 years of preparation by the command crew before Safehold was ready for the colonists to be awakened from cryonic suspension as Adams and Eves. The entire command crew would all die at some point, but some would die earlier than others, and the Archangels would be among the first to go.

Dropping a rock on the original abbey of the Sisters of Saint Kohdy to eliminate all traces of Kohdy might have been a "while you're at it..." instruction from Chihiro.

Sounds to me like some sort of factional dispute with Khody’s adherents (Schueler?) on one side, and possibly Chihiro’s adherents on the other.

I think we can say the the War Against the Fallen was a factional dispute. The core of the Fallen (referred to as demons in the history written by Chihiro) were navy and marine personnel serving under Commodore Pei in the naval escort accompanying the colonization fleet, who became a planetary police force and SAR group after their warships were discarded. Given the nature of their duties, they would be seen as Angels by the colonists, and I can see them convincing the colonists they interacted with that Chihiro had turned to evil and they were opposing him, but they needed to disappear into the population and conceal the fact they were Angels to be able to do so. (The Fallen who defeated Kohdy has been mayor of the town Kohdy lived it at the time and a friend of his, so at least some successfully blended in.)

If Langhorne was not the one who actually carried out the OBS strike against the Alexandria Enclave and the Fallen had evidence Chihiro was responsible, I can see them deciding to act against him.

In such a scenario, the SSK with the diary, the Stone and the Key, and the apparition with the Testimony could all be a master plan of Schueler to correct what either always believed, or come to believe was an error. And an AI in the Cathedral could easily provide the apparition - look at what Owl is capable of.

That's roughly my thinking. The gear to create Schueler's apparition and the holy book it left behind wouldn't need to be as sophisticated as what Owl can do.
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Dennis