Diesel

If you think the OBS cares, then it may well care enough to have implanted large numbers of snarcs. Indeed, OWL might be searching for these, if she has not already.

phillies wrote:There is no evidence as to whether or not the OBS has any triggers, or if so which ones. Moving large masses of metal, e.g., iron steamships, comes to mind, with magnetic field detection.

This is true. Everything that pushes at the limits of the Proscriptions is a calculated risk; although I don't think Iron Ships violate the Proscriptions at all. At least I don't know of anything that limits what ships or other vehicles are made of, only how they are powered -- "wind, water, or muscle."

Steam Power and Iron Ships are "necessary," immediate advancement beyond Steam Power and Iron Ships/Railroads isn't "necessary." Every step beyond what is strictly "necessary" increases the risk of waking the OBS to an autonomous "bomb them all back to the stone age" reaction. That's obviously a worst case scenario, but it represents the potential result of miscalculating a risk -- or combination of risks.

The OBS isn't the only threat to "Progress" either. Steam Power and Iron Ships are comprehensible to the man-on-the-street; it isn't obviously the work of "Shan-Wei's demons."

Internal Combustion Engines are not as visibly comprehensible and their exhaust is poisonous -- far more so than the smoke of Steam Engines, far more so than normal combustion for heating or "industry." Electic motors are eve less visible comprehensible as well as being explicitly forbidden.

It could be that the OBS is a paper-tiger and no threat at all without a command from under the Temple. But the risk that it might NOT be a paper-tiger is too high to casually ignore the Proscriptions -- even if the general populace wouldn't get out the pitchforks and torches for a midnight barbecue of heretics.

Weird Harold wrote:

phillies wrote:There is no evidence as to whether or not the OBS has any triggers, or if so which ones. Moving large masses of metal, e.g., iron steamships, comes to mind, with magnetic field detection.

This is true. Everything that pushes at the limits of the Proscriptions is a calculated risk; although I don't think Iron Ships violate the Proscriptions at all. At least I don't know of anything that limits what ships or other vehicles are made of, only how they are powered -- "wind, water, or muscle."

Steam Power and Iron Ships are "necessary," immediate advancement beyond Steam Power and Iron Ships/Railroads isn't "necessary." Every step beyond what is strictly "necessary" increases the risk of waking the OBS to an autonomous "bomb them all back to the stone age" reaction. That's obviously a worst case scenario, but it represents the potential result of miscalculating a risk -- or combination of risks.

The OBS isn't the only threat to "Progress" either. Steam Power and Iron Ships are comprehensible to the man-on-the-street; it isn't obviously the work of "Shan-Wei's demons."

Internal Combustion Engines are not as visibly comprehensible and their exhaust is poisonous -- far more so than the smoke of Steam Engines, far more so than normal combustion for heating or "industry." Electic motors are eve less visible comprehensible as well as being explicitly forbidden.

It could be that the OBS is a paper-tiger and no threat at all without a command from under the Temple. But the risk that it might NOT be a paper-tiger is too high to casually ignore the Proscriptions -- even if the general populace wouldn't get out the pitchforks and torches for a midnight barbecue of heretics.

I'm pretty sure we're going to get steam powered railroads, at least. In fact the attestation for the "steam automobile" has been issued and at least one of the things built. In fact we already have a railroad between Delthak and the port of Leryk in HFQ.

Don

n7axw wrote:I'm pretty sure we're going to get steam powered railroads, at least. In fact the attestation for the "steam automobile" has been issued and at least one of the things built. In fact we already have a railroad between Delthak and the port of Leryk in HFQ.

Don

I don't think there is any doubt that steam power is going to progress to at least 1945 levels, and probably beyond, in the near future. The big question is what is going to replace Steam Power when it has been taken as far as it can.

I personally think Safehold has a chance to bypass all of the wasted fossil organics and pollution problems caused by ICEs. They can, and IMHO should, skip directly to electric and fusion power once the Proscriptions can be overturned.

jgnfld wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Diesel engines require diesel fuel (or at least some kind of burnable liquid as fuel), which AFAIK, no one produces in any kind of quantity that ...

Besides fuel they require injectors machined to very fine tolerances.

0) Diesel fuel is the easiest of fuels to produce organically or synthetically. Only one easier is wood "gas"

1) Diesel engines do not require injectors

2) Injectors do not need fine tolerances.
*** Only if you want maximum fuel efficiency.

Weird Harold wrote:Internal Combustion Engines are not as visibly comprehensible and their exhaust is poisonous -- far more so than the smoke of Steam Engines, far more so than normal combustion for heating or "industry." Electic motors are eve less visible comprehensible as well as being explicitly forbidden.

What are you smoking? Literally. ICE's are poisonous and coal or wood is not??? They produce the exact same emissions NOx, and unburned by products, other than wood who does not emit sulfur compounds! Coal is far dirtier than any internal combustion engine with all of its arsenic, mercury, etc in it!

You can have coal burning closed cycle steam engines. Look em up. Even had coal burning cars in the 30's.

Weird Harold wrote:
The OBS doesn't need to distinguish individual engines, it just needs to be able to distinguish between an 1890-ish London "Pea Soup" Fog and a 1960-ish LA Smog. Individual engines are the problem of the Inquisition, the OBS is for leveling enclaves and cities where forbidden tech has gotten beyond individual experimenters into (relatively) widespread use. (Where the Inquisition is obviously not doing its job.)

I see that you don't care about wiping out the Temple Loyalist folks down the road from the polluting Charisians who just happen to be downwind from all the pollution that the Charisian factories are producing.

There is also the minor fact that smog predates ICE engines. Smog fist became a major problem in the days of the coal burning steam Engines of Industrial England. So that ship has sailed.

One final point on smog, while extremely rare it is possible to have smog from entirely natural sources.

Weird Harold wrote:
The chance of the OBS acting autonomously against even 1960-ish Los Angeles levels of Internal Combustion Engine emissions is small, but the result of guessing wrong about what will wake the OBS is not worth taking even that small chance -- especially since ICEs and/or electricity are not immediately necessary.

Except that Charis is doing exactly that with steam engines and bootstrapping the Industrial revolution on Safehold. Before you start in on they are needed and diesel engines are not needed, please realize that is strictly your opinion. Other people are entitled to have different opinions on the matter.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I'm pretty sure we're going to get steam powered railroads, at least. In fact the attestation for the "steam automobile" has been issued and at least one of the things built. In fact we already have a railroad between Delthak and the port of Leryk in HFQ.

Don

I don't think there is any doubt that steam power is going to progress to at least 1945 levels, and probably beyond, in the near future. The big question is what is going to replace Steam Power when it has been taken as far as it can.

I personally think Safehold has a chance to bypass all of the wasted fossil organics and pollution problems caused by ICEs. They can, and IMHO should, skip directly to electric and fusion power once the Proscriptions can be overturned.

Safehold does have a natural source of oil that can be used as diesel, "Fire Vine Oil".

Easternmystic wrote:I see that you don't care about wiping out the Temple Loyalist folks down the road from the polluting Charisians who just happen to be downwind from all the pollution that the Charisian factories are producing.

There is also the minor fact that smog predates ICE engines. Smog fist became a major problem in the days of the coal burning steam Engines of Industrial England. So that ship has sailed.

One final point on smog, while extremely rare it is possible to have smog from entirely natural sources.

I am pretty sure it was all the coal burning houses that caused the majority of smog in England. Indeed, King Edward the first banned burning sea-coal in London in 1272 - long before industrial times. It was called sea-coal because it could be found on the shore and was taken away by the wheelbarrow load.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

Keith_w wrote:I am pretty sure it was all the coal burning houses that caused the majority of smog in England. Indeed, King Edward the first banned burning sea-coal in London in 1272 - long before industrial times. It was called sea-coal because it could be found on the shore and was taken away by the wheelbarrow load.

And Safehold has been burning coal to heat homes for centuries now. Possibly since Creation!