Should Duchairn Be Executed After The War?

Duncharin has done too much to walk away with out consequences. that said execution is perhaps going to far. yes he voted for the fleet to attack charis without warning, but the vote would have passed anyway. this does not excuse his actions in any way but it must be factored in. as must his efforts to try and keep mother church solvent and get everything to the troops fighting Clnthain's war

The idea of Dunchairn helping to rebuild with his own hands some of what he helped destroy has a great sense of balence to it.

what about Magwair though? we know very little of him beyond that he was thought as stupid and incompetent but that was early on. like duncairn, he is not the man he was. note also the atrocities done by the army of god are on orders on the inquisition. they are not his orders, though how much he would object is another unknown. also he supported the idea of pension's etc for the families of those sailors and soliders who fight and die in mother church's war. yes to a large extent it is to make them fight better but the point is that he recognises that his troops are PEOPLE to clynthain everyone is simply a tool to used or discarded

PeterZ wrote:Sorry, Mac but Clyntahn and Duchairn were right from the beginning. Charis WAS guilty of trying to break the CoGA. Merlin is a demon as defined by the Writ.

The difference between the two is that Clyntahn didn't care if Charis was guilty. He wanted to make an example of Charis and her citizens. Duchairn wanted only to re-establish the CoGA's divinely ordained primacy on Safehold. Within the parameters of what those two knew to be true, Charis is responsible for all the ensuing deaths. This is true because Charis wanted to subvert the percieved divinely inspred authority on Safehold.

The only way Charis couldn't be guilty is if The Truth was known. That the CoGA was a lie and their authority is not legitimate. By Challenging the CoGA's rightful authority after defeating the KotTL armada, the began the chain of events leading all these deaths.

Even so, they could do no other. That's why Merlin feels guilty. He was responsible for the events that led to all these deaths. He had no choice to begin freeing humanity from Langehorn's chains.

Hi PeterZ,

Peter, it makes me very angry when religion is used as a reason for evil doing. That should never be allowed as an excuse for harming others or otherwise abusing our fellow human beings.

"They could do no other." The Go4 acted in the name of God. So also did the bastards who flew the passenger liners into the World Trade Center. Acting in the name of God buys neither group a thing with me. To the contrary, it biases me against them.

Don

I think all 4 of them should be executed, Clyntahn because he wanted to destroy Charis for absolutely no good reason, and the other 3 because the acquiesced to his desire without particularly trying to stop it.

In what way do we disagree? Merlin had to reveal the lie or humanity would again meet the Gbaba illprepared at some future date. He could do no other.

The CoGA was established secure a future with no high tech. ANYTHING Merlin did to further his goal would have met with resistance from the CoGA. That resistance would have escalated until either Charis or the CoGA was destroyed.

This is true once Charis survived the KotTL armada.

Merlin's binary solution set was to topple the CoGA regardless of any deaths that would cause or allow humanity to be completely destroyed at some future date. He had no choice but to pursue the course that generated the lesser evil.

McGuiness wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Sorry, Mac but Clyntahn and Duch

airn were right from the beginning. Charis WAS guilty of trying to break the CoGA. Merlin is a demon as defined by the Writ.

The difference between the two is that Clyntahn didn't care if Charis was guilty. He wanted to make an example of Charis and her citizens. Duchairn wanted only to re-establish the CoGA's divinely ordained primacy on Safehold. Within the parameters of what those two knew to be true, Charis is responsible for all the ensuing deaths. This is true because Charis wanted to subvert the percieved divinely inspred authority on Safehold.

The only way Charis couldn't be guilty is if The Truth was known. That the CoGA was a lie and their authority is not legitimate. By Challenging the CoGA's rightful authority after defeating the KotTL armada, the began the chain of events leading all these deaths.

Even so, they could do no other. That's why Merlin feels guilty. He was responsible for the events that led to all these deaths. He had no choice to begin freeing humanity from Langehorn's chains.

I suppose this is an area where we're going to have to disagree. Merlin's initial diagnosis of the probable future of Charis was that Haarahld might live to pass the kingdom to Cayleb, but Cayleb (and Charis) wouldn't survive to pass it on to his son. So the storm was coming, and Merlin did speed it up a bit - but even Dynnys agreed that none of the new innovations developed in Charis after Merlin's arrival came close to violating the Proscriptions. It was Clyntahn's hand-picked secretary/inquisitor who warped all reality and accused Dynnys of lying and Charis of basically defying the Church that enabled Clyntahn to get the other members of the Go4 to give Charis to the death penalty.

At that point Charis hadn't done anything that a crackdown by the Inquisition couldn't have squelched. Decreeing the death of an entire nation because Clyntahn was overly paranoid was a massive overreaction, and would have led to similar attacks on Emerald, Chisholm, and possibly Corisande eventually. At the very least some high-placed vicars were going to become Dukes and Earls in what was left of Charis, where they'd rape the populace financially the same way the fake heir of Hanth did before the populace drove him out. (Except there would be no driving out the new rulers of what had been Charis.)

Had the attack on Charis succeeded, the other out-islands would have fallen all over themselves to express their devotion to the CoGA and to demonstrate how doctrinally sound their clergy were. But the inherent paranoia Clyntahn felt for any kingdom too far away to threaten with armies, or too powerful to attack, such as Siddarmark before the SoS, would have led him to his "final solution" over and over until every nation on Safehold bowed to his authority and was terrified of attracting his ire.

Merlin wasn't the problem, Clyntahn and the corrupt vicarate that allowed the facade that the KotTL and not the CoGA were behind the attack to destroy Charis were the problem. Merlin was the inoculation that enabled Charis to survive, which kicked off the Jihad. He didn't start it - Clyntahn did! Even if Merlin had never set foot in Charis, Clyntahn would have found an excuse to destroy it. So despite our favorite PICA's anguish and self-loathing, Merlin is no more responsible for the Jihad than he's responsible for winter rolling around every October or November. It was inevitable once Charis refused to roll over and die.

PeterZ wrote:In what way do we disagree? Merlin had to reveal the lie or humanity would again meet the Gbaba illprepared at some future date. He could do no other.

The CoGA was established secure a future with no high tech. ANYTHING Merlin did to further his goal would have met with resistance from the CoGA. That resistance would have escalated until either Charis or the CoGA was destroyed.

This is true once Charis survived the KotTL armada.

Merlin's binary solution set was to topple the CoGA regardless of any deaths that would cause or allow humanity to be completely destroyed at some future date. He had no choice but to pursue the course that generated the lesser evil.

I think that the main point that is abstract is the CoGA is an evil institution as it is intended to enslave the population though a carefully constructed lie.

Even the group running the institution are technically victims. Though, some have committed crimes that can not be excused. If I were in a position to try the Go4 in a court of law, I would focus on the provable acts of conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit fraud, murder, fraud, unlawful seizure of assets, etc. rather than focus on the overarching 'Good vs Evil' byplay.

In the end, everyone on Safehold has to come together and sticking to things that can be proven without addressing the Schism will help with that process.

So, I would execute the entire Go4 (and probably several thousand members of the church as well), but not for the holy war - just for several thousand provable acts of murder. The writ tells them to die before doing evil. They all had that choice, they all know what they are doing is wrong as the church has taught them thus.

Therefore they all know that they are committing a crime and would meet the standards to be tried for those crimes.
They get tried - and then they die.

However - unless there is a coup in the CoGA I do not see any of them being tried.

Under what law would they be tried? Besides Clyntahn, no one on the G4 broke the laws that applied to them. The KotTL attack was an act of war against Charis. Demanding reparations for that including the execution of the G4 is fine but it will be seen as vengeance. Is vengeance an element that should be encouraged considering what is and has transpired in Siddermark?

shaeun wrote:

PeterZ wrote:In what way do we disagree? Merlin had to reveal the lie or humanity would again meet the Gbaba illprepared at some future date. He could do no other.

The CoGA was established secure a future with no high tech. ANYTHING Merlin did to further his goal would have met with resistance from the CoGA. That resistance would have escalated until either Charis or the CoGA was destroyed.

This is true once Charis survived the KotTL armada.

Merlin's binary solution set was to topple the CoGA regardless of any deaths that would cause or allow humanity to be completely destroyed at some future date. He had no choice but to pursue the course that generated the lesser evil.

I think that the main point that is abstract is the CoGA is an evil institution as it is intended to enslave the population though a carefully constructed lie.

Even the group running the institution are technically victims. Though, some have committed crimes that can not be excused. If I were in a position to try the Go4 in a court of law, I would focus on the provable acts of conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit fraud, murder, fraud, unlawful seizure of assets, etc. rather than focus on the overarching 'Good vs Evil' byplay.

In the end, everyone on Safehold has to come together and sticking to things that can be proven without addressing the Schism will help with that process.

So, I would execute the entire Go4 (and probably several thousand members of the church as well), but not for the holy war - just for several thousand provable acts of murder. The writ tells them to die before doing evil. They all had that choice, they all know what they are doing is wrong as the church has taught them thus.

Therefore they all know that they are committing a crime and would meet the standards to be tried for those crimes.
They get tried - and then they die.

However - unless there is a coup in the CoGA I do not see any of them being tried.

One of the arguments against the death penalty is that it won't bring the dead back.

There is a future as well as a past. Clyntahn, alive, would just create more deaths one way or another.

Duchairn has the skills and character to save lives after the war. That also won't bring the dead back, but as McCoy said once about a casualty "It would be worse if he had company".

If Safehold law has a theory of conspiracy similar to the US one, then just about everyone in the Church administration can be convicted of offenses not related to the war. She of Many Names had a trunk full of pre-war documentation of extortion, rape, and murder. Everyone cooperating with the point of the criminal spear would be guilty.

PeterZ wrote:Under what law would they be tried? Besides Clyntahn, no one on the G4 broke the laws that applied to them. The KotTL attack was an act of war against Charis. Demanding reparations for that including the execution of the G4 is fine but it will be seen as vengeance. Is vengeance an element that should be encouraged considering what is and has transpired in Siddermark?

Oh, I don't know... I suspect that even Zion has laws against murder, bribery, corruption, extortion and the like. Nynian sent along an entire trunk full of evidence. It would be a wonderful time to drag it out for trials.

Or try them all under the laws of Siddermark. One could make an exccellent case for the entire Council of Vicars being accessories to Clyntahn's crimes which happened during the SoS.

Don

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Under what law would they be tried? Besides Clyntahn, no one on the G4 broke the laws that applied to them. The KotTL attack was an act of war against Charis. Demanding reparations for that including the execution of the G4 is fine but it will be seen as vengeance. Is vengeance an element that should be encouraged considering what is and has transpired in Siddermark?

Oh, I don't know... I suspect that even Zion has laws against murder, bribery, corruption, extortion and the like. Nynian sent along an entire trunk full of evidence. It would be a wonderful time to drag it out for trials.

Or try them all under the laws of Siddermark. One could make an exccellent case for the entire Council of Vicars being accessories to Clyntahn's crimes which happened during the SoS.

Don

The Sword of Schueler took the rest of the Go4 by surprise - it was Clyntahn's show that he presented them as a fait accompli, after which they could go along or die. For that matter, even the initial indications that Maikel Staynair was insufficiently deferential to Zion and Paityr Wylsynn and Erayk Dynnys were covering for heresy or pre-heresy in Charis were played up by Clyntahn to present the others with a crisis. The rest of the Council of Vicars was even less informed and, after the destruction of the Circle, even more cowed.

It's not at all to claim that Duchairn, Magwair, Trynair, the Grand Vicar, or the rest of the rump Vicarate have covered themselves in glory. Far from it. It's not to claim that they're innocent of corruption, venality, and dereliction of duty. And it's not to claim that all the mitigating circumstances are known now or even ever will be to Charis and the allies - certainly SNARC's aren't that helpful with so much of it happening inside the Temple and people's heads, though Nynian's sources may offer more perspective. But we the readers at least know better, and ought to realize that they're not all on a level with Clyntahn.

I figure, if we want to judge what the sort of no-holds-barred, dream retribution among the Inner Circle would be like, we can take a look at what Dialydd Mab did. The Inquisitors and troops that "distinguished" themselves hunting down and executing "saboteurs" got singled out and executed. Plenty of people who went along with their orders, who perhaps didn't know any better or were too scared for themselves or their families to do otherwise, were spared.

If that sort of pass goes up the ladder, and if you don't persecute crimes that are effectively "normal" acts of state by political leaders, there's a whole lot of wickedness and suffering wrought by the Jihad, the Sword of Schueler, the Rakurai, and the initial attack on Charis that doesn't land on the docket against those three. Maybe all of it. And giving them a pass on what they did as heads of state is only fair, from Charis' point of view, when Gorjah, Nahrmahn, and even Sharleyan got that benefit.

That would still leave (1) a whole heckuva lot of full disclosure they owe Safehold about how this all happened, and (2) a whole lot of dirty Temple business-as-usual going into it, which, whatever the customs were, surely ran against a lot of Church law, secular law, and good practice.

It'd be fitting if all the evidence the Circle and Sisters of Saint Kohdy gathered were to be finally used in the public trials they were meant for. It would also do a lot more good than a Safehold Nuremberg.

No. The worst he's done is ensure the Church remains solvent. Charis could argue that it was the Go4 that started this entire mess and they would be correct but the real 'war crimes' such as the Sword attacks in Siddarmark are all Clynthans brainchild.

By all accounts Duchairn would be better off out of all the current Temples leadership, between his charity works and is disapproval of the Punishment by not attending the executions he can easily state "I only stayed to lessen the damage," which he stated was his intention.