Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation

A slave trade generally involves people selling slaves (sometimes non-slaves forced into slavery) to slave owners elsewhere.

IMO it's unlikely that there's a major slave trade across "national boundaries" on Safehold.

There may be cases of slave owners selling their slaves to other slave owners within regions of Safehold.

Note, technically serfs are not "bought and sold" as serfs are "bound to the land". Only the land they are bound to is sold.

As for the "cannon fodder" acquired by the Church, IIRC they are mostly serfs and isn't likely a common occurrence outside of "Holy War" situations.

dwileye13 wrote:Admittably yes - an American POV, but that doesn't make it less true. My apologies for straying from the Thread
The topic is using MEMEs from the Great Documents to subvert the tyrannical governments of Safehold, which includes the CoGA.

Perhaps RFC is trending that way. I think it would be a way to start the reformation of the slave/serf society.

How can anyone say there is no slave trafficing on Safehold when a half million (at least) slaves were rounded up an given to the church to be cannon fodder?

DrakBibliophile wrote:SNIP

Note, technically serfs are not "bought and sold" as serfs are "bound to the land". Only the land they are bound to is sold.

As for the "cannon fodder" acquired by the Church, IIRC they are mostly serfs and isn't likely a common occurrence outside of "Holy War" situations.

dwileye13 wrote:Admittably yes - an American POV, but that doesn't make it less true. My apologies for straying from the Thread
The topic is using MEMEs from the Great Documents to subvert the tyrannical governments of Safehold, which includes the CoGA.

Perhaps RFC is trending that way. I think it would be a way to start the reformation of the slave/serf society.

How can anyone say there is no slave trafficing on Safehold when a half million (at least) slaves were rounded up an given to the church to be cannon fodder?

Technical aspects of slave/serf ownership would not impress the individuals that are actually a possession. Owners of the slaves or the land that has serfs would naturally treat them as commodities. It would be natural for those owners to buy when there is shortage or sell when there is surplus.

The intent of my comments were that EoC should establish and publish to those in any form of indenture/serfdom or slavery, a Document (perhaps from the CoC) declaring universal sufferage and an end to slavery in all of Safehold. Use the Writ as the basis.

It would cause some difficulties in Harchong, Desnair and the Temple Lands in the long run and agitation in their rulers in the short term.

dwileye13 wrote:Technical aspects of slave/serf ownership would not impress the individuals that are actually a possession. Owners of the slaves or the land that has serfs would naturally treat them as commodities. It would be natural for those owners to buy when there is shortage or sell when there is surplus.

The intent of my comments were that EoC should establish and publish to those in any form of indenture/serfdom or slavery, a Document (perhaps from the CoC) declaring universal sufferage and an end to slavery in all of Safehold. Use the Writ as the basis.

It would cause some difficulties in Harchong, Desnair and the Temple Lands in the long run and agitation in their rulers in the short term.

No one is saying that there is not slavery and a level of serfdom which is effectively slavery. It is the use of the term slave trafficking that is the problem. There is evidence of slavery, but we do not have evidence of slave trafficking. This does not affect your suggestion of a document denouncing slavery--people are only objecting to the use of the term slave trafficking since we do not know for certain it exists.

The Harchongese inducted into the army are technically serfs, not slaves. They cannot be sold, and have not been sold, so they are not an example of slave trafficking. They are indeed effectively slaves, but again, it is the term slave trafficking that is a problem.

Perhaps a much better historical example exists for the freeing of slaves. The idea that slavery is largely internal might be similar to Sparta enslaving the Helots of the regions surrounding Laconia. Since the Spartan Similars drilled constantly in order to suppress slave rebellions (and as a side effect, were also the best soldiers in Greece), they effectively fill in for the nobility of Harchong.

The Spartan system was effectively overthrown when the neighbouring Bootians invaded with a force of 70,000 and built several large citadels where the Helots could shelter themselves from the Spartans. The huge Bootian Hoplite force overawed the Spartans and kept them from coming out to fight while the Helots built the citadels (and also effectively destroyed the reputation of the Spartans as a fighting force).

A second historic example where the change was internal was the abolition of serfdom by Tsar Alexander III. In this case, the change was a decision by the Tsar that serfdom did not provide the sort of labour and economic activity needed to fulfill the Tsar's long term ambitions, so for something like this to work in Safehold, the autocrats will need to be persuaded that their current system is detrimental to their long term goals and ambitions.

In general, politically "free" systems have much better outcomes and can use their human, economic and physical resources far better than their competitors. Elizabethan England and the United Provinces were able to stand off the vastly larger and richer Spanish Empire of Phillip II, while the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta was competitive with the Ottoman Empire, despite being only a city state. The United States combines these ideas of freedom and opportunity with a continental sized reservoir of manpower and resources, so has far more potential than anyone else.

As for the people who are saying "why are we trying to recreate America"?, don't forget the American Founders were educated gentlemen who studied political systems ranging from the Res Publica Roma to the British parliamentary system to the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta, so had a lot of evidence as to what worked and what didn't. They were also informed by the Dissenters movement in England and various ideas from the Enlightenment about human nature, rights and Justice. To date, no one else has managed to surpass their work.

dwileye13 wrote:This would be a Meme of the greatest value. What is more alluring than individual rights and universal suffrage?

IIRC, neither Charis nor Siddarmark have universal suffrage, so a proclamation supporting this might be premature.

Apparently Lord Protector Stohnar was considering relaxing restrictions on who can hold office, and perhaps on the franchise as well, but I do not believe he has enacted these changes yet.

DrakBibliophile wrote:snip

As for the "cannon fodder" acquired by the Church, IIRC they are mostly serfs and isn't likely a common occurrence outside of "Holy War" situations.

Actually, IIRC there is textev that the use of serfs as cannon fodder is relatively common in Harchong. There are a couple of references to the position held by the Harchong nobility that the serfs are to be used to swap the other side (cannon fodder) while the nobility get on with the real fighting. Since this is the only Holy War since the War against the Fallen, the situation must have arisen more often.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:snip

As for the "cannon fodder" acquired by the Church, IIRC they are mostly serfs and isn't likely a common occurrence outside of "Holy War" situations.

Actually, IIRC there is textev that the use of serfs as cannon fodder is relatively common in Harchong. There are a couple of references to the position held by the Harchong nobility that the serfs are to be used to swap the other side (cannon fodder) while the nobility get on with the real fighting. Since this is the only Holy War since the War against the Fallen, the situation must have arisen more often.

Good points

The masses of Slaves/Serfs (the distinction is meaningless) getting the message that they are, as the Writ states, morally equal to anyone else and that they are not property would put the CoC and the EoC in the high ground of opinion. Perhaps the questions would be put to other parts of the Church (not Schuelerites of course). "...Truths to be self evident ..." has a resonating appeal.

Social reform will take many decades to grow and perhaps now is the time to plant the seeds.

Thucydides wrote:Perhaps a much better historical example exists for the freeing of slaves. The idea that slavery is largely internal might be similar to Sparta enslaving the Helots of the regions surrounding Laconia. Since the Spartan Similars drilled constantly in order to suppress slave rebellions (and as a side effect, were also the best soldiers in Greece), they effectively fill in for the nobility of Harchong.

The Spartan system was effectively overthrown when the neighbouring Bootians invaded with a force of 70,000 and built several large citadels where the Helots could shelter themselves from the Spartans. The huge Bootian Hoplite force overawed the Spartans and kept them from coming out to fight while the Helots built the citadels (and also effectively destroyed the reputation of the Spartans as a fighting force).

A second historic example where the change was internal was the abolition of serfdom by Tsar Alexander III. In this case, the change was a decision by the Tsar that serfdom did not provide the sort of labour and economic activity needed to fulfill the Tsar's long term ambitions, so for something like this to work in Safehold, the autocrats will need to be persuaded that their current system is detrimental to their long term goals and ambitions.

In general, politically "free" systems have much better outcomes and can use their human, economic and physical resources far better than their competitors. Elizabethan England and the United Provinces were able to stand off the vastly larger and richer Spanish Empire of Phillip II, while the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta was competitive with the Ottoman Empire, despite being only a city state. The United States combines these ideas of freedom and opportunity with a continental sized reservoir of manpower and resources, so has far more potential than anyone else.

As for the people who are saying "why are we trying to recreate America"?, don't forget the American Founders were educated gentlemen who studied political systems ranging from the Res Publica Roma to the British parliamentary system to the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta, so had a lot of evidence as to what worked and what didn't. They were also informed by the Dissenters movement in England and various ideas from the Enlightenment about human nature, rights and Justice. To date, no one else has managed to surpass their work.

Just a comment about the Russian example.... That turned into a disaster which eventually led to the Bolshevik revolution. What happened was it forced huge numbers of people off the land without an industrial sector large enough to large enough to absorb them. In 1917, Lenin's campaign slogan was "land, bread and peace" appealing to the landless peasants and their weariness for being cannon fodder in the Tsars wars.

Don

Thucydides wrote:As for the people who are saying "why are we trying to recreate America"?, don't forget the American Founders were educated gentlemen who studied political systems ranging from the Res Publica Roma to the British parliamentary system to the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta, so had a lot of evidence as to what worked and what didn't. They were also informed by the Dissenters movement in England and various ideas from the Enlightenment about human nature, rights and Justice. To date, no one else has managed to surpass their work.

Let's not forget the most shocking scene in the series up to that point, when Staynair took Merlin to St. Zherneau's in BHD and Father Byrkyt told him “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are… ”

I have to admit that I got a bit teary eyed reading those words, because it meant that Merlin suddenly wasn't alone in his unimaginably difficult quest to break the stranglehold the CoGA had around the throat of humanity, and to eventually prepare mankind to face and eliminate the Gbaba for good.

RFC selected those words in giving Merlin the Big Reveal and to explain why Charis had abolished serfdom. I thought it was a perfect way to show that the Terran Federation hadn't been forgotten - and I was probably as shocked as Merlin!

n7axw
I would advise that you check what the actual mechanics of the Russian revolution were. Specifically who did the fighting and deposing of governments. Also, don't blame the Tzar to much. There were revolts before the abolition of serfdom and there were revolts other than the Russian Revolution after the abolition. Plus they were in the middle of WWI. Every nation involved had such problems. See rise of labor rights in Britain, the Mutiny in France(capital m is intentional), the Rise of the Weimar Republic and the complete disintegration of the Dual Kingdom(Austro-Hungary).



Thucydides
You are quite correct about the applicability of the Spartan example to Harchong.(Your name is appropriate for this)

As for free economic/political systems, yes they can be more productive. BUT, Elizabethan England and the United Provinces had major geographical reasons for those successes. Plus France, which was one of the most powerful nations on the European continent since there was a Europe.
For some counter examples see the Triple Entente in WWI and the Allies in WWII(Not the Soviet Union or Russia because I don't think there is a comparable period for what they could have produced under a more politically and economically free system). There was a great increase in socialist policies during both wars in the politically free nations during both wars. That increase was directly related to increased production of war materials.



McGuiness, I know it's late but I think you deserve a response.

In regards to a religious declaration, I am referring specifically to Ninian's evidence. With regards to the conflict of religious authority I am refereeing to the creation of the Church of England(Church of Charis). Plus the Church of Corisand which is partially part of the Church of Charis but also partially separate. The CoC is now a new and unprecedented in Safeholdian history, religious structure. It is unprecedented in that it is both new(on earth there a million religions and sects, on Safehold there has only ever been one) and separate and also isn't necessarily claiming that there will ever be a reunification.

On the subject of freeing slaves literacy is irrelevant. See 'Contraband' in the American Civil War.

McGuiness wrote:Unfortunately, the sadists who fill the ranks of the Inquisition rather enjoy torturing prisoners - and what sort of sick mind do you have to possess to do that sort of thing to you fellow man, even if you are deluded into believing that you are saving their souls?

The armies on the side of the CoGA are not blameless innocents lead astray by the evil inquisition. You need to consider two things.

One: The soldiers in those armies are actively involved in the butchery. See German are in WWII and the subsequent white washing. The SS most definitely the only people who were part of the genocide.

Two: Those sort of sick minds are common throughout humanity. To take Africa. See, campaigns against condoms, various genocides, the lynching's of homosexuals and criminalization (with death penalty) of homosexuality. Regardless of what you think of condoms/birth control and homosexuality the brutal horrible harm of what I listed above is obvious.

Also, to mention non-African areas, see Palestine/Israel, and even better the gigantic mess(better now than a decade ago now) that is the state formerly part of Yugoslavia. Bombarding an open city with artillery is a rather horrible thing to do don't you think?

Edit: I also just wish to add the execution and quarantine(in poverty, with little medicine) of witches and accused witches.