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Building the Peace

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Building the Peace
Post by Zakharra   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:35 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Zakharra wrote:
The Inquisition is like the Soviet Party Commissars the USSR had. Not a part of the regular military, but having power from the ruling party that superseded the USSR military chain of command. The Commissars could suggest, but those 'suggestions' had the backing of the Party behind them and woe unto any officer that stood up to a Commissar and told him no. So the CoG army officers might be officially in command, but in reality, the Inquisition is in command by their power to have -anyone- that annoys them executed at a moments notice.

That said, there are some Inquisition who actually use their heads for something besides holding their ears apart, so the circumstances of them using their power will be different, but actual command of the armies is squarely in the Inquisition's hands despite any official records.


Yes, the Inquisition controls the army, but only for as long as the army stands for it. The instant some general says, 'I don't feel like being arrested, arrest these inquisitors instead' and the troops obey him, the Inquisition's control of the army is history.

I think there have been some very wooly ideas posted about the situation after an assassination of Clyntahn. Firstly no one is going to do it randomly without preparing the ground beforehand, so the remaining GoF members are going to be well protected by loyal armed guards and will not be easily seized by the Inquisition. On the contrary elements of the Temple Guard will be attempting to arrest Rayhno and as many other high ranking Inquisitors as possible, with extreme prejudice, at Maigwair's orders. Constitutionally, the Council of Vicars elects the next Grand Inquisitor, not the Inquisition. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the remaining members of the GoF will be insisting on that, as will the Grand Vicar who is controlled by Duchairn. They will all be pulling rank on whichever Inquisitors are still around. See the Orange? You do what you are told. Maigwair's first instructions on capturing the Zion Semaphore centre will be to put the army officers back in charge of the armies and to reduce the Inquisitors to a genuine advisory role. An instruction he is perfectly entitled to give as Captain General and Vicar and which no individual can legally countermand since there would currently be no Grand Inquisitor. (Good luck trying to arrest any generals after that.)

This is still as very personal society. The Vicarate are not scared of the Inquisition so much as they are scared of Clyntahn. Once the man is dead the situation changes irrevocably, and at least some of the vicarate will recover their spines and react in fury at the lower level inquisitors who have been daring to attack them and their dependants these past few years.


That will work only to a point. Almost all of the officers and enlisted are fanatical (or at the least, very very loyal sons of the Church) CoGA men, they would be far more likely to turn on their commanders than arrest a member of the Inquisition. Also remember this, all of those officers? Their families are under the watch of the Inquisition. The higher the officer, the more the Inquisition will keep an eye on the family. So if those officers rebel, their families will be tortured and killed, and the officers know this. Also the moment an army arrested/killed its Inquisitor(s), it would be attacked by the rest as it would be seen as rebelling against the Church. So the likelihood of an army's officers arresting the Inquisition with it is rather low.


The Vicarate are afraid of the Inquisition as well as being afraid of Clyntahn. Anyone that is in line to succeed Clyntahn is about as bad as he is. The man has stocked the Inquisition with his type of people. And legally, the Inquisition has the authority to do pretty much everything it is as the guardian of the Church.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:59 pm

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Zakharra wrote:snip
That will work only to a point. Almost all of the officers and enlisted are fanatical (or at the least, very very loyal sons of the Church) CoGA men, they would be far more likely to turn on their commanders than arrest a member of the Inquisition. Also remember this, all of those officers? Their families are under the watch of the Inquisition. The higher the officer, the more the Inquisition will keep an eye on the family. So if those officers rebel, their families will be tortured and killed, and the officers know this. Also the moment an army arrested/killed its Inquisitor(s), it would be attacked by the rest as it would be seen as rebelling against the Church. So the likelihood of an army's officers arresting the Inquisition with it is rather low.


The Vicarate are afraid of the Inquisition as well as being afraid of Clyntahn. Anyone that is in line to succeed Clyntahn is about as bad as he is. The man has stocked the Inquisition with his type of people. And legally, the Inquisition has the authority to do pretty much everything it is as the guardian of the Church.

The point you seem to be missing is that the fanatics are going to be receiving a mixed message from the church authorities The Grand Vicar and Magwair are saying that the Inquisition has fallen into doctrinal error, and the inquisitors saying no we haven't. This is going to lead to the various sides have to decide who to believe, and the inquisitors have NOT been making themselves popular in either the country side or in the army, so things may very well go against them.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by Zakharra   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:07 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Zakharra wrote:snip
That will work only to a point. Almost all of the officers and enlisted are fanatical (or at the least, very very loyal sons of the Church) CoGA men, they would be far more likely to turn on their commanders than arrest a member of the Inquisition. Also remember this, all of those officers? Their families are under the watch of the Inquisition. The higher the officer, the more the Inquisition will keep an eye on the family. So if those officers rebel, their families will be tortured and killed, and the officers know this. Also the moment an army arrested/killed its Inquisitor(s), it would be attacked by the rest as it would be seen as rebelling against the Church. So the likelihood of an army's officers arresting the Inquisition with it is rather low.


The Vicarate are afraid of the Inquisition as well as being afraid of Clyntahn. Anyone that is in line to succeed Clyntahn is about as bad as he is. The man has stocked the Inquisition with his type of people. And legally, the Inquisition has the authority to do pretty much everything it is as the guardian of the Church.

The point you seem to be missing is that the fanatics are going to be receiving a mixed message from the church authorities The Grand Vicar and Magwair are saying that the Inquisition has fallen into doctrinal error, and the inquisitors saying no we haven't. This is going to lead to the various sides have to decide who to believe, and the inquisitors have NOT been making themselves popular in either the country side or in the army, so things may very well go against them.



As far as I know, it's the Inquisition that says what is doctrine or not. Or at the least, the one in charge of enforcing what is doctrine. So the Inquisition is the one with the power in the Church, It's the CIA/FBI/KGB of the Church, more or less. Or to use another agency, the SS of the CoGA.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by Cheopis   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:09 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:The general consensus is that the initial war against the G4 is going to be over in the next year or two. So the question becomes, what does Charis need to do to (to borrow a phrase from the High Ridge government) Build the Peace :?:

First thing is probably build a steam powered merchant marine, and start trying to exploit the petroleum resources of the planet.

Raise the standard of living on the mainland to the greatest extent possible, starting with Siddarmark, but expanding into the other nations.

Build a rail network on the mainland where there are not canals. Put steam barges on the canals.

What else?


Universal suffrage and representative government.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:38 am

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Zakharra wrote:snip
As far as I know, it's the Inquisition that says what is doctrine or not. Or at the least, the one in charge of enforcing what is doctrine. So the Inquisition is the one with the power in the Church, It's the CIA/FBI/KGB of the Church, more or less. Or to use another agency, the SS of the CoGA.

Actually doctrine is proclaimed by the Grand Vicar and interpreted by the Grand Inquisitor. If the Grand Inquisitor is dead, and the Grand Vicar is saying that Clyntahn was executed for doctrinal errancy, then things are really going to be up in the air, and with an order from Magwair that all inquisitors are to be arrested and subject to examination for doctrinal purity, a lot of inquisitors are either going to be arrested or dead resisting arrest. I suspect a few of them might even commit suicide - as in "17 knife wounds in the back, worst case of suicide I ever saw".
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by dwileye13   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:36 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:There is no way that the EoC and Siddarmark are going to accept a peace that does not include Clyntahn's head - preferably separated from his body, regardless of how messy that will be. In addition, it almost has to include access to the Temple for the Church of Charis on an equal basis to the CoGA, assuming that the coGA still exists. An yes Nynian's documentation will undoubtedly be used for purging the upper levels of the CoGA.


I have this inkling that part of any deal with CoGA will be that Paityr Wylsynn would be a Vicar and the head of the Schueler Faction as the Inquisitor General. Perhaps the Archbishop of Charis would be elevated to the Grand Vicar as well.

These actions by themselves could transform the CoGA. Of course the previous Management would have to be gutted.
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by Zakharra   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:44 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Zakharra wrote:snip
As far as I know, it's the Inquisition that says what is doctrine or not. Or at the least, the one in charge of enforcing what is doctrine. So the Inquisition is the one with the power in the Church, It's the CIA/FBI/KGB of the Church, more or less. Or to use another agency, the SS of the CoGA.

Actually doctrine is proclaimed by the Grand Vicar and interpreted by the Grand Inquisitor. If the Grand Inquisitor is dead, and the Grand Vicar is saying that Clyntahn was executed for doctrinal errancy, then things are really going to be up in the air, and with an order from Magwair that all inquisitors are to be arrested and subject to examination for doctrinal purity, a lot of inquisitors are either going to be arrested or dead resisting arrest. I suspect a few of them might even commit suicide - as in "17 knife wounds in the back, worst case of suicide I ever saw".



Anything like that happening and its going to be a bloodbath on all sides. The Inquisition is tasked with upholding the doctrinal purity (as -they- see it) of the doctrine, not the Grand Vicar. Remember who is handing out the dispensations to use the new technologies. It's not the Grand Vicar, but the Grand Inquisitor. And as far as I remember, isn't the Grand Vicar a non-entity in all of this? He was chosen because he was kind of a dud, with the Grand Vicar being more of a prestige position rather than a power position.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:22 pm

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Zakharra wrote:snip
As far as I know, it's the Inquisition that says what is doctrine or not. Or at the least, the one in charge of enforcing what is doctrine. So the Inquisition is the one with the power in the Church, It's the CIA/FBI/KGB of the Church, more or less. Or to use another agency, the SS of the CoGA.
fallsfromtrees wrote:Actually doctrine is proclaimed by the Grand Vicar and interpreted by the Grand Inquisitor. If the Grand Inquisitor is dead, and the Grand Vicar is saying that Clyntahn was executed for doctrinal errancy, then things are really going to be up in the air, and with an order from Magwair that all inquisitors are to be arrested and subject to examination for doctrinal purity, a lot of inquisitors are either going to be arrested or dead resisting arrest. I suspect a few of them might even commit suicide - as in "17 knife wounds in the back, worst case of suicide I ever saw".
Zakharra wrote: Anything like that happening and its going to be a bloodbath on all sides. The Inquisition is tasked with upholding the doctrinal purity (as -they- see it) of the doctrine, not the Grand Vicar. Remember who is handing out the dispensations to use the new technologies. It's not the Grand Vicar, but the Grand Inquisitor. And as far as I remember, isn't the Grand Vicar a non-entity in all of this? He was chosen because he was kind of a dud, with the Grand Vicar being more of a prestige position rather than a power position.

I agree that it is going to be a blood bath. The Grand Vicar is a puppet, but Traynair is the one pulling his strings. If Magwair and Duchairn have taken out Clyntahn, do you really think that Traynair won't have his tame puppet backing them?
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by 6L6   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:53 pm

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dwileye13, I feel that your Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:36 am post was spot on,and that would be the best outcome for the Empire. Take over the COG loke stock and barrel.
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Re: Building the Peace
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:59 pm

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Zakharra, you seem to have bought Clyntahn's view of the church as if it were the legitimate and only one. Whereas, actually, Clyntahn is a fantasist megalomaniac and most of the other Vicars hold a view of the Church where they have real power not just the Grand Vicar, which is the view of the church found in the Writ and operative throughout most of Safehold history. Clyntahn has driven them into obedience by fear, but once he has gone they will be reasserting themselves. The Grand Vicar is the most powerful office in the Church, that's why the GoF ensured a nonentity they could control was elected to it. At the time none of them was sufficiently trusted by the others to have the office and they sure weren't going to let it go to anyone competent who might rein in their schemes. Basically he is the Pope, God's direct representative on earth. Once Clyntahn is gone, the more fanatical the lower level Inquisitors are, the more their own faith will require them to obey the Grand Vicar
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