River monitors?

I would have sworn I saw a textev refrence to River II ironclads. Either in book or by mention from RFC. I figured they were going to be purpuse built river ironclads.

I would hope they were monitors, because as Dilandu says those kick all kinds of ass on rivers (and canals) which Siddimark has TONS of.

Direwolf18 wrote:I would have sworn I saw a textev refrence to River II ironclads. Either in book or by mention from RFC. I figured they were going to be purpuse built river ironclads.

I would hope they were monitors, because as Dilandu says those kick all kinds of ass on rivers (and canals) which Siddimark has TONS of.

In his Oct 8 posts in a "Thirsk and Alvarez" Topic, rfc mentions Dethak II class as a follow on to the Delthaks and a new Eraystor or city class as the near future direction - but he specifically says he hasn't and is not going to give the details to us yet. I think earlier forum speculation is where the name River II came from and is replaced by Delthak II.

ksandgren wrote:In his Oct 8 posts in a "Thirsk and Alvarez" Topic, rfc mentions Dethak II class as a follow on to the Delthaks and a new Eraystor or city class as the near future direction - but he specifically says he hasn't and is not going to give the details to us yet. I think earlier forum speculation is where the name River II came from and is replaced by Delthak II.

Well, i really hope they would jump to monitors. Casemate ironclads on rivers generally proved to be ineffective: they need to much armor to be really protected (and so they need to be big enough to handle this armor weight... and because of their size they became unsutable for river operations).

lyonheart wrote:Hi ChrisD, guys,
River gunboats and Monitors are some of my favorite subjects, but I have to go with those who've pointed out there are enough already with no sign of any CoGA comparable threat to require building more turreted versions.[snip]

There's a bunch of objectives, though.

Ultimate Strategic -- Do Something about the Gbaba

Meta-Strategic -- re-introduce the innovative mindset to Safehold

Grand-Strategic -- force Temple-controlled areas to convulse themselves with social change trying to stay in material shouting distance and FAIL, so you've created the conditions of a decisive defeat for the Temple and the Group of Four. (Defeat happens in the mind; it's not enough to kill heaps of the enemy, you have to make the survivors believe they lost. That's more difficult, especially in the religious context.)

Strategic -- exert absolute control over transportation routes involving water; "if it touches salt water it's ours", unofficial motto of the ICN.

Tactical -- can we sink that? Quickly? without much risk?

Then we get the economic objectives; Caleb and Sharleyan, as wise and enlightened rulers aware that their glory is a reflection of the safety and prosperity of their subjects, want their military expenses to be a continuously decreasing proportion of their revenues. That means their revenues have to go up. Way up. That in turn means they really want to take the largest possible steps in tech introduction, because going from low-pressure to medium-pressure to high-pressure to direct-drive turbines to geared turbines means you've got to build, buy, and amortize all those steps. Going straight to efficient two and three stage medium pressure engines gets rid of a lot of amortization time and effort. (Something like eighty years of historical time.)

It also gives Charis a commercial advantage; if you're trying to figure out what a steam engine *is*, and here's the Delthak works offering to sell you a river tug that uses steam turbines (they've already got turbines to run the big air compressors for their production lines) coupled to hydraulic drives (Safehold has good plumbing already) for water jets, you're going to buy the the Charisian product because it's going to be massively cheaper to run and work better than anyone else's first generation steam engine. Then you have to get that bright local kid to figure out how maintain the thing, and maybe you grit your teeth and mislead the kid's mother and the local priest and you send the kid to school, not in Charis, no one would ever forgive you for sending the kid to the heart of Charisian heresy, but maybe in Corisande or Siddermark. By the time that kid's the age you are now, they've got together with some friends and started a cylinder re-boring and high pressure pump reconditioning shop and are talking about investing in the local attempt to start a turbine works.

I really doubt it's going to happen that way; it'd be a bad thing if the Charisian Empire didn't want things to happen that way if they could get it.

So, sure, right now, this minute, they don't have an immediate military need to introduce river gunboats with steam turbines, water jets, and turretted steel breech-loading artillery with nitrocellulose propellant and truly explosive shell fillings. The first two of those things have obvious economic advantages, though -- fuel cost tends to dominate capital cost in anything with an engine -- so if they can, they might as well. It's internally useful and it contributes to the Meta and Grand Strategic objectives.

Too bad the EoC isn't evil.
Boat design could consist of ten gunports with stocks (the old head and hands kind) on each side. Capture some inquisitors to fill the stocks (gag them).

This a prediction without bias since I really don't care what authorial discretion decides. Two predictions, really although the first is minor.

1.Charis' shells from those breach loaders goes through the iron plating on those screw galleys like a knife through hot butter. Nothing Dohlar has to armour with will change that.

2.There will be no monitors. The riverclad designs Charis is already more than adequate for the task for which they are designed. Secondly in the midst of a war for survival, the EOC cannot afford to be expending resourses on things that are really not needed. Finally there is no way that monitors would enhance the plot of the book since the current ironclads have no effective opposition with none on the horizon in the future.

There! That my guess and why. Could be wrong sinse it happens all the time. If RFC wants monitors, cheers! Bring them on.

Don

Hi Don,

Thank you for that masterful summation.

L

n7axw wrote:This a prediction without bias since I really don't care what authorial discretion decides. Two predictions, really although the first is minor.

1.Charis' shells from those breach loaders goes through the iron plating on those screw galleys like a knife through hot butter. Nothing Dohlar has to armour with will change that.

2.There will be no monitors. The riverclad designs Charis is already more than adequate for the task for which they are designed. Secondly in the midst of a war for survival, the EOC cannot afford to be expending resourses on things that are really not needed. Finally there is no way that monitors would enhance the plot of the book since the current ironclads have no effective opposition with none on the horizon in the future.

There! That my guess and why. Could be wrong sinse it happens all the time. If RFC wants monitors, cheers! Bring them on.

Don

n7axw wrote:This a prediction without bias since I really don't care what authorial discretion decides. Two predictions, really although the first is minor.

1.Charis' shells from those breach loaders goes through the iron plating on those screw galleys like a knife through hot butter. Nothing Dohlar has to armour with will change that.

2.There will be no monitors. The riverclad designs Charis is already more than adequate for the task for which they are designed. Secondly in the midst of a war for survival, the EOC cannot afford to be expending resourses on things that are really not needed. Finally there is no way that monitors would enhance the plot of the book since the current ironclads have no effective opposition with none on the horizon in the future.

There! That my guess and why. Could be wrong sinse it happens all the time. If RFC wants monitors, cheers! Bring them on.

Don

So: If it ain't broke?

TN4994 wrote:

n7axw wrote:This a prediction without bias since I really don't care what authorial discretion decides. Two predictions, really although the first is minor.

1.Charis' shells from those breach loaders goes through the iron plating on those screw galleys like a knife through hot butter. Nothing Dohlar has to armour with will change that.

2.There will be no monitors. The riverclad designs Charis is already more than adequate for the task for which they are designed. Secondly in the midst of a war for survival, the EOC cannot afford to be expending resourses on things that are really not needed. Finally there is no way that monitors would enhance the plot of the book since the current ironclads have no effective opposition with none on the horizon in the future.

There! That my guess and why. Could be wrong sinse it happens all the time. If RFC wants monitors, cheers! Bring them on.

Don

So: If it ain't broke?

Ya got that right!,

Don