Homophobia

TN4994 wrote:As I wrote, it's implied.
Please research the History of European Religions, Myths and Justifications added to the Bible and Koran, Coffee allowed by Pope Clement 8th, mammals designated as fish, the differences between Western and Eastern Rite Sects of the Catholic Church, and evolution of the Vatican and College of Cardinals (also it's banks, military organization, and the inquisition. And as the Bible incorporated certain known aspects of the cultures involved, the Writ incorporated certain known advantages. Coffee might have been left of the colony's manifest, or DW knows it was once banned as the Devil's Drink. And yes, the Book of Pasquale should list procedures to prevent STD's. But if Langhorn was intolerant of the gay community?

No, it is not at all implied that the CoGA is based on the Catholic Church. HighJohn is quite correct that there are innumerable fundamental differences. HighJohn has already demonstrated considerable knowledge of religion and the history of religion (though he and I disagree on some interpretations of that knowledge and choice of sources ).

Langhorne and the Archangels modeled parts of the Writ after familiar religious texts from Earth, including the Bible but also others. And parts of the religious ceremonies are similar to "high church" ceremonies on Earth, including both Protestant and Catholic churches. But the Church of God Awaiting is not modeled after any single church on Earth, and has many elements that do not appear in any church on Earth.

Comparing the CoGA to the Catholic Church is prone to the same limitations as comparing the People's Republic of Haven to Revolution-era France in one of David's other major series. There are some superficial similarities, but there are also fundamental differences.

SWM wrote:

TN4994 wrote:As I wrote, it's implied.
Please research the History of European Religions, Myths and Justifications added to the Bible and Koran, Coffee allowed by Pope Clement 8th, mammals designated as fish, the differences between Western and Eastern Rite Sects of the Catholic Church, and evolution of the Vatican and College of Cardinals (also it's banks, military organization, and the inquisition. And as the Bible incorporated certain known aspects of the cultures involved, the Writ incorporated certain known advantages. Coffee might have been left of the colony's manifest, or DW knows it was once banned as the Devil's Drink. And yes, the Book of Pasquale should list procedures to prevent STD's. But if Langhorn was intolerant of the gay community?

No, it is not at all implied that the CoGA is based on the Catholic Church. HighJohn is quite correct that there are innumerable fundamental differences. HighJohn has already demonstrated considerable knowledge of religion and the history of religion (though he and I disagree on some interpretations of that knowledge and choice of sources ).

Langhorne and the Archangels modeled parts of the Writ after familiar religious texts from Earth, including the Bible but also others. And parts of the religious ceremonies are similar to "high church" ceremonies on Earth, including both Protestant and Catholic churches. But the Church of God Awaiting is not modeled after any single church on Earth, and has many elements that do not appear in any church on Earth.

Comparing the CoGA to the Catholic Church is prone to the same limitations as comparing the People's Republic of Haven to Revolution-era France in one of David's other major series. There are some superficial similarities, but there are also fundamental differences.

How is it that you say I compare it with only the Catholic Church? I seem to read Judeo-Christain-Muslim as meaning more than just RC.
And which part of the CoGA organization is not related to any religion on earth? Everything I've read so far into book 7 is. Holy Writ, Inquisition, Treasury, General of Church's Army, Major and Minor Orders, Vicars, Bishops (with rings) Priests, Brothers and Sisters, Temple, Cathedrals, Faithful, Heritic,jihad, etc. All that I've read relates to the faiths that believe in one god, afterlife, and a heaven and hell.

TN4994 wrote:How is it that you say I compare it with only the Catholic Church? I seem to read Judeo-Christain-Muslim as meaning more than just RC.
And which part of the CoGA organization is not related to any religion on earth? Everything I've read so far into book 7 is. Holy Writ, Inquisition, Treasury, General of Church's Army, Major and Minor Orders, Vicars, Bishops (with rings) Priests, Brothers and Sisters, Temple, Cathedrals, Faithful, Heritic,jihad, etc. All that I've read relates to the faiths that believe in one god, afterlife, and a heaven and hell.

My apologies, I misread your text as primarily comparing it to the Catholic Church.

As to what is not related to any religion on Earth, I see the following:
Millions of first-hand documented accounts confirming the existence and miracles of the Angels. Nearly every Adam and Eve has a written account, and many from subsequent generations, a set of documentation unmatched by any previous religion.

Explicit and detailed instructions limiting technology. While a few sects like the Amish shun technology, I don't know of any that have such explicit details written in their holy works.

A holy temple constructed of clearly miraculous materials.

A holy work which serves as the verifiable guide to engineering, medicine, agriculture, terraforming, and basic science. No religion in history has a holy work like that.

That's what I can come up with off the top of my head.

Note for AirTech before anything else. It is 750 standard years(Earth years). So your off by twenty five percent in you number of generation(humans didn't start aging quicker because Safehold has shorter years, that would probally require tens of thousands of years of evolution or some serious genetic engineering). Also do you have the names/locations of any of those studies, I would like to at least read their abstracts out of personal interest.

TN4994 wrote:From what is implied (my understanding), the CoGA is similar to Roman Catholic leadership, with Eastern Orthordox, Anglican, & some Eastern Rites Catholic combined with a little Judaism and Muslim teachings....

That is where my focus on the Roman Catholic Church comes from. You specified in you post that "..the CoGA is similar to Roman Catholic leadership..". The fact that there are similar rites I consider to be basically a fashion choice. See iconoclasts and differences between Protestant and Catholic churches for real life examples. As for the teachings, like I said earlier and others have pointed out most recently(though you may not have read it yet)
"Explicit and detailed instructions limiting technology. While a few sects like the Amish shun technology, I don't know of any that have such explicit details written in their holy works."
AND
"A holy work which serves as the verifiable guide to engineering, medicine, agriculture, terraforming, and basic science. No religion in history has a holy work like that."
The holy writ is rather different from other religious texts.

Also you comparison of various names as evidence of other similarities is like saying both the United States and Russia have presidents and similar military ranks so both have similar constitutions. Plus the naming similarity can be easily explained by RFC not wanting to invent a million new titles. Why make up words for " Priests, Brothers and Sisters, Temple, Cathedrals, Faithful, Heritic,jihad, etc" when the words already exist. What could he call the Heretics unless he wanted to make up a new word or for jihad, he could have used phrase 'holy war', 'crusade' or 'pilgrimage'(pilgrimage would be a the best word with regards to similarities to catholic history, see 'first' crusade for best example, but not only example) but he choose jihad. Was the Butlerian Jihad also a hint of similarities between a confederation of free humans and the catholic church? Bear in mind that Dune series does in fact have actual named churches(some of which actually have Catholic in their names, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible).

Also one last note. The use of brother or sister or some other form of familial title is very common in important(to the individuals involved) social movements or groups. See, communism for a simple real life example of this. Note communism is most often explicitly atheistic. I personally don't know the history of why atheism got linked in with the belief system of communism, but it rather undermines your point about those names.

Ok, we've strayed from the topic on Homophobia.
Now, if D Weber based Archangel Langhorne on the English Vicar John Langhorne; then Homosexual activity would most likely be a no-no.

Now back to the Holy Writ and CoGA:
I don't have a copy of the wit so I can only go with the tibits supplied and compare them with Earth's history.
My first line:
"From what is implied (my understanding), the CoGA is similar to Roman Catholic leadership, with Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, & some Eastern Rites Catholic combined with a little Judaism and Muslim teachings." Notice the word similar.

Now I don't know Chihiro's Holy Writ; But I do know a little of The Roman Catholic Church's history and structure during the Spanish Inquisition and Middle Ages.
Holy lands owned by Popes, Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishops, Monasteries, Abbeys, and Cloisters? Yes
Married Priests and above? Yes (Although the Popes were either unmarried or widowers.)
Specific Cardinals designated to handle the secular and spiritual well being of the Mother Church? Yes
Roman Curia (Council of Cardinals, Bishops, Etc.). Yes
Donations to Church Dignitaries for absolution. Yes
Donations from royalty and others for preferred placement of Bishops, etc. Yes
Swiss Guard. Yes
Modification of Holy Writs (Church Dogma and Bible)to promote personal agendas. Yes (Also in other religious cultures. Shan-wie, they all did it.)
Papal Bulls to impede technological and medical advancement. Yes
Procuring national armies to fight off heretics and conduct Holy War. Yes
Maintaining its own army? Yes
Constructing a Grandiose Place of Worship that also houses the Church Hierarchy? Yes
Elimination of people practicing unorthodox procedures? Yes
Turning a blind eye and even promoting slavery? Yes
Also known to declare mammals as fish. And finaly allow coffee.

Do you know that a few Christian type religions keep the books of the bible separate? Several eliminated certain scripture and added phraseology to justify their teachings. Others add a gnostic text. The book of Noe (Noah) is longer than in most known English translations. Seems he had two sons and one daughter. All married.

Leviticus attempts to be a listing of things not to do; incorporating certain knowns of the time about diet, disease and letting land go untended every seven years for example.

The cure for leprosy? Some translations indicate it was a minor skin rash caused by mites/louse and not really leprosy. Thus the house cleaning.
The birds are indicated as sparrows and pigeons in several translations.
(We'll have to ask Monty Python about the direction of flight when capturing the sparrows.)

Also, disagreements appear in Biblical Translation into English.
Example:
"in the belly of a whale."
"in the belly of a great fish."
"in the middle of a great fish."
"in the middle of great fish."
"in the middle of a pod of great fish."
"in the midst of a pod of dolphins."

"turned into a pillar of salt."
"turned and was petrified."

Similar is not identical.

Holy lands owned by Popes, Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishops, Monasteries, Abbeys, and Cloisters? Yes
Married Priests and above? Yes (Although the Popes were either unmarried or widowers.)

Yes agreed they have that in common.



Specific Cardinals designated to handle the secular and spiritual well being of the Mother Church? Yes

What exactly is your point here. It seems to be that both the Roman Catholic Church and the CoGA both have employees with defined job roles? What exactly does that prove?


Roman Curia (Council of Cardinals, Bishops, Etc.). Yes

Where are you getting that that the Council of Cardinals was anything even remotely like the Vicariate? The only things the two have in common is they are have members who vote on things are both part of a religious group. Here are some differences. Fixed size(Vicariate). Fixed membership(Vicariate, you don't get to join by being a senior church member in the city). Internal selection of members(Vicariate). Ordained specifically in holy texts(Vicarate, Langhorn wrote the rule abut how vicars are elevated for one thing). Has representatives (theoretically) from every area on the planet(To be fair the Curia church would only need to have representatives from every catholic area on the planet). Finally and most importantly. Not always in session(Council of Cardinals).




Donations to Church Dignitaries for absolution. Yes
Donations from royalty and others for preferred placement of Bishops, etc. Yes

Yes, agreed.


Secular Control of Church offices? mabye.

I added that one. The Catholic Church had that problem. The CoGA has an intermixing of dynasties in Harchong. Which isn't the same thing but is evidence of that sort of problem.



Swiss Guard. Yes

No. The temple guard is stationed all over Safehold. The Swiss Guard were not even stationed all over Europe or even Catholic Europe.



Modification of Holy Writs (Church Dogma and Bible)to promote personal agendas. Yes (Also in other religious cultures. Shan-wie, they all did it.)

No. There has been exactly one modification to the holy writ. See OAR when Merlin is just waking up. The CoGA does not and never has had the authority to make changes to the holy writ. Nor have they. Changes to the interpretation yes. But changes to the text? Hell no! Have there been changes to the bible? The question "Which bible?" should answer that.


Papal Bulls to impede technological and medical advancement. Yes

Ish. There were some. They also failed miserably. See crossbows for a easy example.


Procuring national armies to fight off heretics and conduct Holy War. Yes

Yes, they both had holy wars and both had states which fought in those holy wars. So what? A better comparison is examining the composition of the knights of the first crusade. They were largely French. Not German, the most powerful state in Europe at that time. Or English(Saxon?) or Hungrian. (Hungary was rather annoyed at the crusaders for that matter) The equivalent of this would be the CoGA only using Dohlarans without any Harchongese or Desnarians.


Maintaining its own army? Yes

Small local army. But yes.



Constructing a Grandiose Place of Worship that also houses the Church Hierarchy? Yes

No. No. No. No.
No. No. Who built the Temple exactly? Not the church. Who built St. Peter' Basilica? The church. Different church but you get the point.


Elimination of people practicing unorthodox procedures? Yes

Yes. So does every organization with orthodox procedures that has ever existed. Most don't kill the people but plenty do. So what is your point?



Turning a blind eye and even promoting slavery? Yes

So? Who didn't? Seriously name a state which existed in an area with a large slave population which didn't. Note, states which changed their mind later don't count. Though they are great. See Great Britian. Pun intended.


Also known to declare mammals as fish. And finaly allow coffee.

So? What is your point here? Another difference to support me. Yay.

TN4994 wrote:Do you know that a few Christian type religions keep the books of the bible separate? Several eliminated certain scripture and added phraseology to justify their teachings. Others add a gnostic text. The book of Noe (Noah) is longer than in most known English translations. Seems he had two sons and one daughter. All married.

Yes. I not sure I have ever, in my entire life, said or written anything supporting biblical inerrancy. So what is your point and why are you bringing this? Also are you aware that some Sects of Christianity disagree on what books to even use. Much less their organization?

TN4994 wrote:Leviticus attempts to be a listing of things not to do; incorporating certain knowns of the time about diet, disease and letting land go untended every seven years for example.

The cure for leprosy? Some translations indicate it was a minor skin rash caused by mites/louse and not really leprosy. Thus the house cleaning.

I'm aware of the problems with translation. I never said they weren't there. The point was the massive differences between on one hand detailed descriptions of how to produce asbestos and on the other hand witch craft as a cure for anything.

Also the problems with translation highlight another difference. Further supporting me.

TN4994 wrote:Similar is not identical.

I was the one arguing that similarities in one area do no add up to similarities in another. I have been describing the massive differences to make a point that your also wrong about the similarities. You were arguing from the start that they do. So are you trying to state that you have been convinced by me and that I am right?

TN4994 wrote:Ok, we've strayed from the topic on Homophobia.
Now, if D Weber based Archangel Langhorne on the English Vicar John Langhorne; then Homosexual activity would most likely be a no-no.

Sigh. For what reason? Langhorne wasn't idiot (more likely he was delusional genius). Sexual orientation is, clearly, not a significant part of the doctrine. For what reason Langhorne might want to spoil people's lives beyond what he considered vital?

Dilandu wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Ok, we've strayed from the topic on Homophobia.
Now, if D Weber based Archangel Langhorne on the English Vicar John Langhorne; then Homosexual activity would most likely be a no-no.

Sigh. For what reason? Langhorne wasn't idiot (more likely he was delusional genius). Sexual orientation is, clearly, not a significant part of the doctrine. For what reason Langhorne might want to spoil people's lives beyond what he considered vital?

The most likely reason would be a doctrine of maximizing population growth. The Jewish doctrines grew from a similar driver.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of celibacy has more to do with ensuring that the wealth of the clergy lands in the pockets of the bishops rather than the clergy's children. (and until the 1500's the money tended to wind-up with the bishops or cardinals families (or frequently their children)).

Rules lead to corruption if exemptions to the rules are possible.

AirTech wrote:
The most likely reason would be a doctrine of maximizing population growth. The Jewish doctrines grew from a similar driver.

And for what reason? They have whole planet to setlle on! They also have much more effective medicine and agriculture then on Earth in similar historical period.

And with all respect, the homosexuals aren't demographically significant part of population.

Dilandu wrote:

AirTech wrote:
The most likely reason would be a doctrine of maximizing population growth. The Jewish doctrines grew from a similar driver.

And for what reason? They have whole planet to setlle on! They also have much more effective medicine and agriculture then on Earth in similar historical period.

And with all respect, the homosexuals aren't demographically significant part of population.

For the same reason any religion wants: more followers and worshipers. The more followers the Church has, the more power they wield (and remember that pretty much everyone believed to their bones that the CoGA is a true and -very- real religion. After all they have written proof of go's work in creating Safehold and of the Archangels. So they wanted as many followers as possible (not to mention it was a part of the original plan to have humans repopulate from their near extinction. That didn't change when Langhorne hijacked the plan). It gives the Church something to do, more worshipers also means more people growing food, producing goods, offering more in tithes as well as more people for the Church hierarchy to rule over.

I don't think homosexuality would be outright forbidden or the people who are that killed (at first, societies have changed on Safehold, look at the differences between Charis and Harchong after all), but it is likely frowned upon. Homosexuals aren't going out to 'be fruitful and prosper' ie having children. That's likely the reason it would be frowned upon.