War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advance?

Tim wrote:Did not Charis learn from the Weslyne artifact that a sleeper, or something, was going to awake under the Temple? And that it would occur sooner then they had though? Which is why I assumed the objective was Zion and the Temple with time being a factor.

Unless of course Charis think's it is fine for an unknown entity, who is associated in some way with making the current Church, to reappear to adjudicate the current troubles.

So I think the Emperor has to share at least this information with his Allies if he has not yet.

Not exactly correct.

What we know is that the Archangels "will return" in twenty years or so. We do NOT know what form the return will be, we do not know whether they will show up physically, we do not know whether they will show up at the Temple, and we specifically do not know whether there are sleepers under the Temple.

It is reasonable to be cautious about dealing with the Temple (as Merlin has been doing) for fear that it might cause something to happen. But we do not know.

There have been a couple things posted in this thread about Nynian that I do not recall reading. I suspect that they are spoilers from the snippets.

PLEASE stop spoiling things for me and others who do not wish to read spoilers!

This thread is not currently marked as a spoiler thread, and it is possible for someone to participate in the discussion without spoilers. If you want to point out something from the snippets in this thread, carefully mark your post with SPOILER warnings and some white space, so people know to skip the post if they don't want to read it.

I am beyond getting frustrated, and starting to get angry. This happens every time a new book is about to come out. People start throwing spoilers from the snippets around carelessly, ignoring both the rules of this forum and the customs of courtesy. I sometimes have to leave this forum--for months--just because people are being discourteous and spoiling upcoming books for me and couldn't learn to stop. For each of the last three Safehold books, I had to leave the forum, for three to six months each time, because it was the only way to keep the rule-breakers from ruining things for me.

I beg of you, please. Follow the rules. MARK YOUR SPOILERS.

Well, my theory is the at least one Archangel (Shueler) is inside the Key. About others... the main problem, is that we didn't know, did the Archangels planned all this together, or they had their own faction?

So far, it looks as if we are dealing with several different, perhaps - independent of each other's plans.

Hi Lyonheart,

You may have a point about the detectability. But I would point out that Owl was having no difficulty identifying what was going on. Given that, I'm forced to presume that whatever sensors available to the OBS would be as good as Owl's. And IIRC, they ran the test for months. It's not as though the time frame was short enough for the sensors to miss.

Don

OlorinNight wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Had I been setting up automatic control, the threshold would have been the prescriptions. We have solid text evidence that steam is in violation. And Merlin was wondering about gunpowder. I'm sticking to my guess with the while acknowledging that you have a very valid point.

Don

For that to be true, you need a system that is able to detect and recognize violation of the Proscriptions. But some of those violations may be to small (from a signal point of view) to be detected and recognized efficiently.

The easier way would be to implement a few clearly recognizable signal that need to be crushed: use of electricity, use of nuclear power,... Huge concentration of energy on very localised spot...

For all we know, the use of steam may generate a signal that could be confused with a small forest fire...
.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6262#p161218

Merlin set up the test to make sure it looked like non-natural use of steam. He simulated trains, cars, etc. It would not have looked like a forest fire. That's why they proceeded with steam.

Dilandu wrote:My IMHO - that the Zion and Temple should not be invaded by open military force, but infiltrated by some team of agents, that be able to determine the degree of possible threat. The direct invasion is complicated due to:

- The possibility of some overwhelming reaction by Tempe automatic or sleeres themselves.

- Purely military difficulty of attack on the such isolated and possibly ultimatedly defended position

- The moral and religious aspects; the heretics, that conquered Dohlar and demanded peace threaty and contribution from the secular rulers of the Temple Land is the one thing. The heretics, that attacked Zion and Temple itself - is the other one.

To some degree the Temple has been invaded and a force exists in Zion. Nynian has an organization within the Populace and within the Temple. If Alliance with the SSK can be achieved, there may be an assault group to support a coup d'etat. How deep and how large is undetermined at this time but I am inclined, IMHO, to believe it is a great deal larger force than most expect.

dwileye13 wrote:

Dilandu wrote:My IMHO - that the Zion and Temple should not be invaded by open military force, but infiltrated by some team of agents, that be able to determine the degree of possible threat. The direct invasion is complicated due to:

- The possibility of some overwhelming reaction by Tempe automatic or sleeres themselves.

- Purely military difficulty of attack on the such isolated and possibly ultimatedly defended position

- The moral and religious aspects; the heretics, that conquered Dohlar and demanded peace threaty and contribution from the secular rulers of the Temple Land is the one thing. The heretics, that attacked Zion and Temple itself - is the other one.

To some degree the Temple has been invaded and a force exists in Zion. Nynian has an organization within the Populace and within the Temple. If Alliance with the SSK can be achieved, there may be an assault group to support a coup d'etat. How deep and how large is undetermined at this time but I am inclined, IMHO, to believe it is a great deal larger force than most expect.

Your idea of a coup staged by an assault group is intriguing. I find myself thinking that the flash point for that could well be an amphibious invasion by a EOC force that would create the sense of immediate crisis that would allow such a coup to succeed.

It would be an interesting way to tell the story, anyway.

Don

SWM wrote:

Tim wrote:Did not Charis learn from the Weslyne artifact that a sleeper, or something, was going to awake under the Temple? And that it would occur sooner then they had though? Which is why I assumed the objective was Zion and the Temple with time being a factor.

Unless of course Charis think's it is fine for an unknown entity, who is associated in some way with making the current Church, to reappear to adjudicate the current troubles.

So I think the Emperor has to share at least this information with his Allies if he has not yet.

Not exactly correct.

What we know is that the Archangels "will return" in twenty years or so. We do NOT know what form the return will be, we do not know whether they will show up physically, we do not know whether they will show up at the Temple, and we specifically do not know whether there are sleepers under the Temple.

It is reasonable to be cautious about dealing with the Temple (as Merlin has been doing) for fear that it might cause something to happen. But we do not know.

Hence the question mark. The speculation on the boards seems to be all over the place and not very concrete.

So what is the war objective? The killer app to end the war and create peace? If the Allies can not answer that question resources and lives will be wasted. Even at this early stage the Allies have got to be discussing and agreeing to a goal. The goal may change as the situation changes but a lot of long term logistical questions have to be asked and answered now.

I hope Mr Weber addresses this soon in his books. All the strategy sessions we have been privy to so far are addressing immediate concerns.

Tim wrote:So what is the war objective? The killer app to end the war and create peace? If the Allies can not answer that question resources and lives will be wasted. Even at this early stage the Allies have got to be discussing and agreeing to a goal. The goal may change as the situation changes but a lot of long term logistical questions have to be asked and answered now.

There is a problem with defining a singular objective because everyone involved has different goals -- especially Merlin, who made it plain very early on that his goals were NOT the same as Charis' goals and he could only be trusted as long as Charis' goals didn't conflict with his own.

Weird Harold wrote:

Tim wrote:So what is the war objective? The killer app to end the war and create peace? If the Allies can not answer that question resources and lives will be wasted. Even at this early stage the Allies have got to be discussing and agreeing to a goal. The goal may change as the situation changes but a lot of long term logistical questions have to be asked and answered now.

There is a problem with defining a singular objective because everyone involved has different goals -- especially Merlin, who made it plain very early on that his goals were NOT the same as Charis' goals and he could only be trusted as long as Charis' goals didn't conflict with his own.

I'm not sure I agree with this... sure, Merlin stated as such back in the very first book. But he's also repeatedly done things that have directly jeopardized his entire mission to help his friends. Flying back at high mach numbers to save Sharleyn is the most obvious example given the textev that he was very worried about detection. She may think of her mission as of overriding importance, but regardless of the state of her body she's obviously not a machine, and I doubt the ability of Machiavelli himself to stand by and watch the destruction of all he held dear if it furthered his strategic goals.

Regarding the war final objective: I can't see it as anything other than the capitulation of the Go4, almost certainly from inside. A direct invasion of Zion seems not only militarily near impossible, but a huge risk from the PR front. The Mad Wizard has gone down this literary road already in 'A Rising Thunder'. The Go4.. errr... Mandarins running the SL were glumly certain that Manticore wouldn't come crashing over the hyperwall on a direct course for Earth, as this would hand the SL a huge PR victory. You just can't have a bunch of mortal men shaking swords at the realized temple of God himself... it's GOT to be all about the corrupt leadership, and making them relent by demonstrating that continuing the war is militarily and financially too costly, no matter the ecclesiastical impetus.

It looks to me like we're heading up to a coup d'etat from Duchairn, followed by the official church being forced to state that they were wrong about the CoC being heretics. I'm halfway expecting a scene in a book or two where he takes a page from Commodore Pei and walks into a Go4 meeting in the temple with a pistol under his robes.

The appearance in some fashion of at least some of the command crew in 20 years is too far away. There's no way the war can actively go that long, and at roughly one year passed per book (written at the pace of one a year), there's no way DW could write it. We're either going to have a political collapse and recognized schism (and cold war), followed by a time jump for the next book, or that timetable is going to have to be accelerated by some event. Also nothing in the current books or situations would EVER lead to Merlin pulling out that Assault Shuttle and all his other toys... he could defeat all the armies of Safehold all by himself if he wished. The armory is also useless against the OBS. If it's really a bunch of Chekov's guns, then somehow we've got to get a situation where they're useful.

Perhaps Schuler and Chihiro AI's come back... Chihiro under the temple, and Schuler from the Key. Chihiro arms the temple loyalists with holy weapons, and Schuler (with Merlin's help) does the same for the Empire.

It's fun speculating, though going all the way back to the Old Baen Bar (late 90's), I have a terrible, terrible track record of predicting ANYTHING the mad wizard does.