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(SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?

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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by Tanstaafl   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

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n7axw wrote:Peter is right about the risk of bringing her in. But there are countervailing risks to having her on the outside knowing that she is not quite trusted and knowing that there are things going on to which she is not privy which could inspire her to apply her not inconsiderable skills in spy craft toward finding out.

Peter is concerned that she is a passionate believer. That is true, but the question is passionate believer in what. Not everyone who loves God accepts uncritically the doctrine of the church. My own sense of Nynian is that she hasn't accepted anything uncritically in a long time. Frankly, that makes her a better candidate for the inner circle rather than the reverse since it that she will be able to step back and take another look at what she has been taught.

I agree that translating those Spanish writings is critical. That is an uncontrolled variable in the mix since at this point, we don't know what they say. Another potential fly swirling around the olive in the martini here concerns whether or not the translation will be trusted. Nynian herself seems to trust Merlin enough to tell the story of St Khody and the sisters so it is reasonable to assume that her trust in Merlin will carry over to the translation.

But that leaves the question of the sisters? How will they react when their previously untranslated document suddenly turns up translated after almost 1000 years? When would it be appropriate to tell them and who should do it?

The thing is, Merlin and the inner circle needs to get a grip on how to handle Nynian since there could be more Nynians in the future. Shsn-wei's re-educated Adams and Eves are for the most part unaccounted for. Further, we really don't know who else was re-educated by whom and what sort of secret organizations they might have left behind.

Finally, What we have on Safehold ts COGA. The last word on that title is "awaiting". Do we know what they are waiting for.

Don


Don, you touch on many questions about revealing (part of) the truth to Nynian. For me to understand the reach of Nynian her belief and her capacity to accept the story how man came to Safehold the next quote is crucial.

runsforcelery wrote:

“Well, given the difference between the heretical church in question and what that pig Clyntahn and his precious Group of Four had done to Mother Church, it didn’t take me long to conclude that you represented a fairly emphatic statement of divine disapproval of their actions.” Her smile disappeared. “And, to be honest, I found myself wondering what had taken God so long.”


“Who are you really, Merlin?” she asked. “Where do you truly come from? And don’t just tell me ‘the Mountains of Light.’”

“Where else might I come from, Aivah?” he asked in return, holding out his arms in a gesture which took in not simply the bedchamber, nor even the Republic’s capital, but the entire world beyond them.

“I don’t know,” she told him very quietly, her eyes deep and dark in the fire-spangled bedchamber’s dimness, “but I’ve come to suspect that wherever you truly come from is also where all of the Adams and Eves who awoke here on Safehold on the Day of Creation truly came from, as well.”




I think she can accept that man came to Safehold for another reason than stated in the writ. And who is to argue that it was not God's wish that man escaped from the Gbaba?

She would be a great and invaluable addition to the inner circle. But my problem is with the Sisters of Saint Kohdy.

Is it possible to separate her from her organization. The SSK has different groups. Some belief more and others less from the story in the writ. How much, if anything, can be disclosed to those groups.

The first thing Merlin should ask her should be something along the line of: "My dear, you are on to something. But if I trust you, does that mean I have to trust all the Sisters of Saint Kohdy?"

Revealing anything to her depends on her convincing Merlin and the inner circle that she will reveal nothing without the consent of the inner circle.

And about translating the diary. Just give the sisters a dictionary, a grammar and some high-school textbooks to learn Spanish. Along with some novels like Don Quichote and stories about El Cid Campeador.
In beautiful a thousand year old leather bound volumes freshly minted by OWL. :-)

editted lots of typo's
Last edited by Tanstaafl on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:41 am

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Tanstaafl wrote:
n7axw wrote:Peter is right about the risk of bringing her in. But there are countervailing risks to having her on the outside knowing that she is not quite trusted and knowing that there are things going on to which she is not privy which could inspire her to apply her not inconsiderable skills in spy craft toward finding out.

Peter is concerned that she is a passionate believer. That is true, but the question is passionate believer in what. Not everyone who loves God accepts uncritically the doctrine of the church. My own sense of Nynian is that she hasn't accepted anything uncritically in a long time. Frankly, that makes her a better candidate for the inner circle rather than the reverse since it that she will be able to step back and take another look at what she has been taught.

I agree that translating those Spanish writings is critical. That is an uncontrolled variable in the mix since at this point, we don't know what they say. Another potential fly swirling around the olive in the martini here concerns whether or not the translation will be trusted. Nynian herself seems to trust Merlin enough to tell the story of St Khody and the sisters so it is reasonable to assume that her trust in Merlin will carry over to the translation.

But that leaves the question of the sisters? How will they react when their previously untranslated document suddenly turns up translated after almost 1000 years? When would it be appropriate to tell them and who should do it?

The thing is, Merlin and the inner circle needs to get a grip on how to handle Nynian since there could be more Nynians in the future. Shsn-wei's re-educated Adams and Eves are for the most part unaccounted for. Further, we really don't know who else was re-educated by whom and what sort of secret organizations they might have left behind.

Finally, What we have on Safehold ts COGA. The last word on that title is "awaiting". Do we know what they are waiting for.

Don


Don, you touch on many questions about revealing (part of) the thruth to Nynian. For me to understand te reach of Nynians's belief and her capacity to accept the story how man came to Safehold the next quote is crucial.

runsforcelery wrote:

“Well, given the difference between the heretical church in question and what that pig Clyntahn and his precious Group of Four had done to Mother Church, it didn’t take me long to conclude that you represented a fairly emphatic statement of divine disapproval of their actions.” Her smile disappeared. “And, to be honest, I found myself wondering what had taken God so long.”


“Who are you really, Merlin?” she asked. “Where do you truly come from? And don’t just tell me ‘the Mountains of Light.’”

“Where else might I come from, Aivah?” he asked in return, holding out his arms in a gesture which took in not simply the bedchamber, nor even the Republic’s capital, but the entire world beyond them.

“I don’t know,” she told him very quietly, her eyes deep and dark in the fire-spangled bedchamber’s dimness, “but I’ve come to suspect that wherever you truly come from is also where all of the Adams and Eves who awoke here on Safehold on the Day of Creation truly came from, as well.”



I think she can accept that man came to safehold for another reason than stated in the writ. And who is to argue that it was not God's wish that man escaped from the Gbaba?

She would be a great and invaluable addition to the inner circle. But my problem is with the Sisters of Saint Kohdy.

Is it possible to seperate her from her organisation. The SSK has different groups. Some belief more and others less from the story in the writ. How much, if anything, can be diclosed to those groups.

The firts thing Merlin should her should be something along the line of: "My dear, you are on to something. But if I trus you, does that mean I have to trust all the Sisters of Saint Kohdy?"

Revealing anything to her depends on her convincing Merlin and the inner circle that she will reveal nothing without the consent of the inner circle.

And about translating the diary. Just give the sisters a dictionary, a grammar and somme high-school textbooks to learn spanish. Along with some novels like Don Quichote and stories about El Cid Campeador.
In beautifull a thousand year old leather bound volumes freshly minted by OWL. :-)


I think that your questions and concerns about the sisters are well placed and understandable. But maybe a bit pessimistic. Remember that these are women who have been taught to question wisdom from on high by the example of their patron saint along with not being happy with the way his memory has been treated.

That being said, I agree that Nynian should be asked to promise not to share the truth with the sisters unless being given permission to do so.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by schoeffelk   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:40 am

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And why isn't Merlin having OWL prep a large number of SNARCs to be sent to all branches of the Sisterhood. A minimum of two for each person. One to stay with them and one to search all the nooks and crannies of the respective convents. But no, that's against what Merlin does with his 'friends'.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by Tanstaafl   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:28 am

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schoeffelk wrote:And why isn't Merlin having OWL prep a large number of SNARCs to be sent to all branches of the Sisterhood. A minimum of two for each person. One to stay with them and one to search all the nooks and crannies of the respective convents. But no, that's against what Merlin does with his 'friends'.


And who are the members of The Sisters of Saint Kohdy?
And to which monastries and nunneries are the snarcs to be sent?

Merlin has intructed OWL to respect the privacy of the confession and the privacy of the bedchamber. And I expect the last one is going to change in the case of Nynian and her Sisters.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by Rod   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:40 am

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Tanstaafl wrote:
schoeffelk wrote:And why isn't Merlin having OWL prep a large number of SNARCs to be sent to all branches of the Sisterhood. A minimum of two for each person. One to stay with them and one to search all the nooks and crannies of the respective convents. But no, that's against what Merlin does with his 'friends'.


And who are the members of The Sisters of Saint Kohdy?
And to which monastries and nunneries are the snarcs to be sent?

Merlin has intructed OWL to respect the privacy of the confession and the privacy of the bedchamber. And I expect the last one is going to change in the case of Nynian and her Sisters.


I don't see Merlin breaking the promise to respect the privacy of the confessional! No Way!
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by Icarium   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:27 am

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I think people are -way- too willing to give Nynian the abilities of a superhuman. She's highly talented, but really, Merlin can't figure out how she's communicating? Really?

She wasn't a priority before, that's all. Even with the help of the Inner Council, he had to deal with absolute /reams/ of data. I'm relatively sure that now that she's moved to the top of the list, he'll figure out her communication method and we'll find it's not some super-sekrit-uber-l33t method that's beyond anyone else.

She's -very- talented, but she's not superhuman.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:41 am

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Rod wrote:
Tanstaafl wrote:
And who are the members of The Sisters of Saint Kohdy?
And to which monastries and nunneries are the snarcs to be sent?

Merlin has intructed OWL to respect the privacy of the confession and the privacy of the bedchamber. And I expect the last one is going to change in the case of Nynian and her Sisters.


I don't see Merlin breaking the promise to respect the privacy of the confessional! No Way!


Merlin is willing to kill people who react poorly to the news, just as the SSK are. If ensuring they do not make a mistake trusting the most dangerous and potential helpfull agent on Safehold means they violate that privacy, they will violate that pricvacy. They won't violate that privacy indescriminantly, but if the situation warrants is grave enough, Merlin will have OWL watch her in the bathroom, the bedroom and yes the confessional.

The alternative might well be losing to the CoGA. Is violating the privacy of a few select people a greater evil than allowing the CoGA to extend humanities exposure to the Gbaba? That's not an easy question to answer, but the answer is NOT an unconditional yes.
EDIT: last word in the post from no to yes.
Last edited by PeterZ on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:54 am

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She's been in a high risk occupation so since she's survived, she has to be very very good.

Still you have a point about "figuring out her communications".

While she has made it very hard to trace her communications, Merlin hasn't really seen the need to trace her communications.

Mind you, I can think of ways that she could have made it hard for even Merlin/Owl to trace her communications but it would be possible for Merlin/Owl to do so.


Icarium wrote:I think people are -way- too willing to give Nynian the abilities of a superhuman. She's highly talented, but really, Merlin can't figure out how she's communicating? Really?

She wasn't a priority before, that's all. Even with the help of the Inner Council, he had to deal with absolute /reams/ of data. I'm relatively sure that now that she's moved to the top of the list, he'll figure out her communication method and we'll find it's not some super-sekrit-uber-l33t method that's beyond anyone else.

She's -very- talented, but she's not superhuman.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:12 pm

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Peter has it right on this one. If the decision is made to monitor Nynian, she will be monitored exhaustively. Nothing private will ne revealed beyond the necessary, but she will be monitored.

As for Merlin's difficulty in discovering how she is communicating, all that indicates is that she is practicing good tradecraft mking it more difficult to follow along with as was already mentioned upstream in this thread, it hasn't been a priority until now.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?
Post by Tanstaafl   » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:33 pm

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n7axw wrote:Peter has it right on this one. If the decision is made to monitor Nynian, she will be monitored exhaustively. Nothing private will ne revealed beyond the necessary, but she will be monitored.

As for Merlin's difficulty in discovering how she is communicating, all that indicates is that she is practicing good tradecraft mking it more difficult to follow along with as was already mentioned upstream in this thread, it hasn't been a priority until now.

Don


And we know that Nynian is comfortable with entertaining guests in her bedroom. The one place OWL was forbidden to snoop.


I wonder if Merlin realizes he has a blind spot in that place. He was very clear when he placed those injunctions on OWL, and OWL was still a very literal minded tactical computer at that time.
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