(SPOILERS) Too worried about waking up Dad?

n7axw wrote:I think that the real best option would be to take someone, Father Paityr comes to mind, give them very thorough training in the operation of computers, and then after planning for as many contingincies as possible, infiltrate the temple and go to the basement.

Face it. Until that computer is accessed, Merlin isn't going to know what he is really up against and for obvious reasons, he can't do it himself.

Don

An option yes, but I think it falls under the "not until they have to" category.

RFC Quote
There may well come a time when his hand is forced. Until that time arrives, however, he is going to proceed exactly as he has to this point. While he would love to get a look inside the Temple --- assuming that could be done without his own electronic gizzards setting off all sorts of alarms --- he isn't going to poke his nose into it until/unless he has to

Hmm. Merlin may be getting new resources to probe the temple Madam Pahrsahn's group the Sisters of Saint Khody. Sisters who have worked in the temple for years as cleaning women etc. Some information could come from through debriefing, and training such as to what to look for will aid in planning a more in-depth probe.

Perhaps Owl could provide small film cameras that should not set off any alarms where electronic cameras would. This would allow mapping of the interior of the temple, and perhaps identification of censors.

Just gathering information without modern technology should not wake up dad, while trying to hack the system is likely to have very adverse consequences. Merlin needs this information to plan any actions against the temple.

Poker

abrax894 wrote:Okay, let's get something strait here, I am no longer advocating direct action against the Temple/OBS. I thought I had made that clear but apparently it's going over some peoples head. What I'm saying is, 'Don't wake up the OBS' is not a catch all for every idea that comes up. The EXAMPLE I used, was of a large asteroid or group of asteroids set into the orbital past of the OBS to take it out. YES, it has holes in it, BUT, waking up the OBS is not one. It may trigger a defensive reaction but it WILL NOT cause it to start randomly striking out at anyone who LOOKS like they may be starting to advance.

The point of this article was that this reason/excuse isn't a catch all. I was pointing out how lazy it was for people to respond with it when the idea has almost NO chance of waking the OBS the way they are worried about. That is ALL I was saying. I was not promoting any specific way of taking the OBS/Temple out.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that the if a threshold is crossed somewhere/somehow that causes the OBS to activate it will activate by firing randomly in random directions? (And indeed, when it eliminated the pair of SNARCs this didn't happen so there's textev to support the idea that the OBS has a range of responses.)

But going back to the crowd of rocks idea, and ignoring the fact that RFC has stated that it wouldn't work ... Presumably this would involve either the recon skimmer or the assault shuttle, flying up to collect and aim the rocks? Whilst we can be reasonably certain that just flying the skimmer (and probably the shuttle) won't set off the OBS, I don't think anyone could be certain that using them to launch a rock cloud wouldn't/couldn't result in one or more of the following happening :-

[1] The OBS targets the site the skimmer/shuttle launched from.
[2] The OBS targets the skimmer/shuttle when they return to Safehold.
[3] The OBS lets the skimmer/shuttle land and then targets the landing site (possibly combined with [1] if it's a different site).
[4] Use of archangel level technology to attack the OBS triggers a "wake up Dad" routine.

In order for a "lets attack the OBS" idea to be considered IMHO, it has to be explained as part of the idea why the OBS won't respond by either targeting the site(s) the attack was launched from or "waking up Dad". Which I believe basically means someone needs to come up with a way of attacking the OBS that the OBS won't recognise as an attack ... Which should be a fun game, since noone knows what the OBS is programmed to recognise as a threat or what it's programmed to do when presented with same.

n7axw wrote:I think that the real best option would be to take someone, Father Paityr comes to mind, give them very thorough training in the operation of computers, and then after planning for as many contingincies as possible, infiltrate the temple and go to the basement.

Face it. Until that computer is accessed, Merlin isn't going to know what he is really up against and for obvious reasons, he can't do it himself.

Don

Ha! There are some grand images of a night raid on the temple in my head right now (delusion on my part of course). Imagine, Paityr (as a descendant of Schueler) in the middle of some elite troops (maybe partly from Aivah's organisation) rushing into the temple. Aivah used her connections in the temple for easy entry and some maps for planning. Maybe there even are certain elements of the temple guard helping them, cleaning the hallways and keeping people away. Of course there will be some problems because a higher ranked officer of the temple guard comes and wants to know what's up and then the situation could easily escalate...But in the end Paityr and some of his bodyguards arrive in the basement...What would wait down there? (That's a rhetorical question, I don't want to open that can of worms here )

What about having OWL use a couple of SNARCS to set up a high tech manufacturing facility in the asteroid belt?

By the time the millennial event occurs, how much resources could he have up and running?

Could it be enough to counter Langhorne loyal forces?

A few comments...

runsforcelery wrote: There's a reason he wouldn't even allow steam power until he'd set up a test target on an uninhabited island thousands of miles away from any human settlement.

You know, there's actually a flaw in Merlin's test parameters. A sufficiently paranoid programmer may be worried about the OBS getting baited to waste ammo on fake targets. Merlin's test took place on an uninhabited island. So wouldn't the sudden appearance of steam power on an island where no humans have been living just minutes ago and where no human is living NOW look exactly like the kind of fake targets to get the OBS to waste ammo?

Heck, Federation sensors are good enough that the OBS could visually inspect a potential target for signs of human habitation. You know, to make sure it really is the Safeholdians experimenting with forbidden tech and not some advanced group trying to run the OBS out of ammo.

Luckily for Charis, Merlin guessed it right the first time.

In the meantime, he is also perfectly willing to make a suicide run into the Temple with a nuke strapped to his back if that's the only way to prevent it from waking up prematurely.

Question: Why would MERLIN need to personally carry a nuke into the Temple? Or indeed, why would ANY human need to do so? Why not just load the nuke in a skimmer on autopilot (or hell, load a copy of a virtual personality) and turn it into an improvised cruise missile?

I get that Kau-Yung did it that way, but I also got the impression that he was a bit suicidal with his wife's death and personally wanted to make sure he got Langhorne. None of that reasoning applies to Merlin and he KNOWS Clyntahn never leaves the Temple.

I suspect that the people who think he's being too cautious haven't really fully succeeded in putting themselves in his place.

I don't think he's too cautious. In fact, I think his caution is actually helping his overall goal of getting Safeholdians to think for themselves. The danger of the OBS pretty much removes any temptation to "play God" as it were.

But I have this sneaking suspicion that in the end, the OBS is programmed to NOT autofire on Safehold without getting permission from "Dad" first. Of course that means that anything Merlin thinks might trigger an automatic strike would really wake up "Dad"...

Question: Why would MERLIN need to personally carry a nuke into the Temple? Or indeed, why would ANY human need to do so? Why not just load the nuke in a skimmer on autopilot (or hell, load a copy of a virtual personality) and turn it into an improvised cruise missile?

Because it'd bounce off the dome like a rubber ball?

n7axw wrote:You really don't know what will wake up the OBS. Merlin's skimmer doesn't do it. Steam didn't do it even though steam is a violation of the prescriptions. Everybody is afraid that the introduction of electricity would do it. The only thing that got its attention so far is Merlin's snarc approaching it. You really don't know that it doesn't have a protocol to react to any threat, including approaching asteroids. Had I been designing the thing, that's exactly what it would have.

Don

That brings up one thing that kind of bugged me from OAR. It's not specified, but it seems to me that if the OBS identified the snarc *as a snarc* then it definitely should have put in a wake up call to "Dad". The implication is that the snarc somehow posed for a rock or other natural hazard to navigation that got blown away but didnt scream "hostile humans with access to tech".

In addition, while OWL seems to lack the resources to build an OBS killer, I find it likely Merlin could obtain them if he really wanted to expend the effort. It might be a major PITA to obtain, for example, rare earth metals, but as part of the preparation for "Dad's" eventual waking up, it seems like a good idea. The potential link between the two basically means dont mess with the OBS until you are ready to take it all down and get it all at once (and whatever you do, dont miss!).

Given that it's likely to take years to get the assets in place to deal with the potential that when "Dad" wakes up he may be able to command the OBS or other Federation tech, they should start now.

How do we know that Owl hasn't already started?

There's been plenty of things occurring on Safehold that we don't learn about until later.

For one example, it's obvious that Rhobair Seablanket convinced Earl Coris that he was an agent of the late Prince Hektor before Irys learned of it.

ericth wrote:

n7axw wrote:You really don't know what will wake up the OBS. Merlin's skimmer doesn't do it. Steam didn't do it even though steam is a violation of the prescriptions. Everybody is afraid that the introduction of electricity would do it. The only thing that got its attention so far is Merlin's snarc approaching it. You really don't know that it doesn't have a protocol to react to any threat, including approaching asteroids. Had I been designing the thing, that's exactly what it would have.

Don

That brings up one thing that kind of bugged me from OAR. It's not specified, but it seems to me that if the OBS identified the snarc *as a snarc* then it definitely should have put in a wake up call to "Dad". The implication is that the snarc somehow posed for a rock or other natural hazard to navigation that got blown away but didnt scream "hostile humans with access to tech".

In addition, while OWL seems to lack the resources to build an OBS killer, I find it likely Merlin could obtain them if he really wanted to expend the effort. It might be a major PITA to obtain, for example, rare earth metals, but as part of the preparation for "Dad's" eventual waking up, it seems like a good idea. The potential link between the two basically means dont mess with the OBS until you are ready to take it all down and get it all at once (and whatever you do, dont miss!).

Given that it's likely to take years to get the assets in place to deal with the potential that when "Dad" wakes up he may be able to command the OBS or other Federation tech, they should start now.

We don't know! Merlin doesn't know! RFC knows but is holding his cards close to his vest.

IMO Merlin must gather information before taking any action as regards the temple. Remember it was built AFTER the war of the fallen and thus sneaking in a nuke is probably one thing it's automatic defenses are programed to watch for.

I have a felling this will be touched on in HFQ and we will know more.



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