Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by SWM   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:07 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Madeye_Malk wrote:has it been confirmed that safehold is "Millions" of light years distant of earth?? that seems extreme considering our entire galaxy is only 100,000 light years from edge to edge. is Safehold really in another galaxy? at that distance it makes the Gbaba danger seem remote and unlikely especially if they flew in the direction of "not Gbaba" for millions of light years

No, Safehold is not millions of light-years from Sol. As I stated up-thread, it is only thousands of light-years.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by Madeye_Malk   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:29 pm

Madeye_Malk
Midshipman

Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:49 pm

SWM wrote:
Madeye_Malk wrote:has it been confirmed that safehold is "Millions" of light years distant of earth?? that seems extreme considering our entire galaxy is only 100,000 light years from edge to edge. is Safehold really in another galaxy? at that distance it makes the Gbaba danger seem remote and unlikely especially if they flew in the direction of "not Gbaba" for millions of light years

No, Safehold is not millions of light-years from Sol. As I stated up-thread, it is only thousands of light-years.


Noticed it after I posted, but posting for work. and it was what I figured. I'll go back to lurking now :p
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:01 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

Concerning the size of the Terran Federation.

First, First Contact with the Gbaba was at Crestwell's World which at fifty light years from Sol was one of the furthest outposts of the Federation.

Later, it was mentioned that the first Gbaba fleets destroyed the populations of three of the Federation's fourteen major extra-Solar star systems.

Since there would be more "lesser extra-Solar star systems" than major star systems, my guess is that the Terran Federation contained less than one hundred star systems counting the Solar System.
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by Thucydides   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:38 pm

Thucydides
Captain of the List

Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:15 am

Like many posters, I doubt there is a "choice" involved. Either you take active measures or eventually the Enemy will discover you.

Far better to make contact at the time and place of your own choosing.

A single solar system probably does not provide enough energy and material to take on the enemy (the entire Terran Federation was essentially overwhelmed by the production capability of the Gbaba), but there are options once a breakout into space can be achieved:

If Von Numann machines are possible, entire fleets can be built by self replicating "seed factories" deposited at every suitable solar system (i.e. anyplace with matter and energy, even if humans might not be able to inhabit the system). even if you are simply building FTL missile busses, you will overwhelm the enemy through sheer weight of fire.

Humans could choose to colonize habitable planets circling Red Dwarf stars. If recent research is core ct, there may be as many as 60 billion habitable planets circling Red Dwarf stars in our galaxy alone.

Go one better than Langhorne and research moving into alternative dimensions or "pocket universes" (variation, figure out a way to enclose the Enemy in a "pocket universe").

Other ideas are possible, I lack the imagination to think of them right now... :(

The key is production capability, much like the Allies were able to defeat the axis powers ultimately not though better equipment (compare the Sherman tank to a Panther or Tiger, for example), or better soldiers (debatable, but the Germans and Japanese were certainly battle hardened forces and to be treated with respect) but having more resources and being able to deploy them to the fight.
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:25 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Madeye_Malk wrote:has it been confirmed that safehold is "Millions" of light years distant of earth?? that seems extreme considering our entire galaxy is only 100,000 light years from edge to edge. is Safehold really in another galaxy? at that distance it makes the Gbaba danger seem remote and unlikely especially if they flew in the direction of "not Gbaba" for millions of light years


I'm afraid that number came off the top of my head for which I apologize. I bow to your (and others) better information on this matter.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by evilauthor   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:19 pm

evilauthor
Captain of the List

Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:51 pm

DrakBibliophile wrote:Since we're also talking about Gbaba detecting high tech civilizations, David Weber has reminded us that the Gbaba had explored the star region that was later home to the Terran Federation.

From what he said, the Terran Federation strongly suspected that Gbaba found the Federation because 1) they routinely sent survey ships out into territory that they had visited in the past (remember the destroyed civilizations found by the Federation) or 2) that the Gbaba had automatic "listening posts" in that region of space. Thus, either via survey ships or listening posts, the Gbaba became aware of Federation colonies or Federation starships.

By all available information, the Gbaba have not visit the region of space that contains Safehold.


And... there's no telling how long THAT is going to last.

IIRC, everything the Federation "knows" about the Gbaba has been from direct observation or deduced from said observations. AFAIK, they never cracked any Gbaba navigational databases or otherwise gotten any information about Gbaba civilization by any other means.

In short, alot of what the Federation "knows" are really assumptions and logical deductions based on scanty evidence, assumptions and deductions that the honorable author can contradict at any time he feels like it. Like Safehold ships stumbling across Gbaba ships or outposts where the old Federation didn't think they'd be.

Given Weber's track record, any renewed fight with the Gbaba is likely to be a) before Safehold thinks it's prepared enough, and b) after Safehold has prepared enough to just squeak in a victory. :mrgreen:
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by jmseeley   » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:37 am

jmseeley
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:55 pm

Thucydides wrote:Like many posters, I doubt there is a "choice" involved. Either you take active measures or eventually the Enemy will discover you.

Far better to make contact at the time and place of your own choosing.

A single solar system probably does not provide enough energy and material to take on the enemy (the entire Terran Federation was essentially overwhelmed by the production capability of the Gbaba), but there are options once a breakout into space can be achieved:

If Von Numann machines are possible, entire fleets can be built by self replicating "seed factories" deposited at every suitable solar system (i.e. anyplace with matter and energy, even if humans might not be able to inhabit the system). even if you are simply building FTL missile busses, you will overwhelm the enemy through sheer weight of fire.

Humans could choose to colonize habitable planets circling Red Dwarf stars. If recent research is core ct, there may be as many as 60 billion habitable planets circling Red Dwarf stars in our galaxy alone.

Go one better than Langhorne and research moving into alternative dimensions or "pocket universes" (variation, figure out a way to enclose the Enemy in a "pocket universe").

Other ideas are possible, I lack the imagination to think of them right now... :(

The key is production capability, much like the Allies were able to defeat the axis powers ultimately not though better equipment (compare the Sherman tank to a Panther or Tiger, for example), or better soldiers (debatable, but the Germans and Japanese were certainly battle hardened forces and to be treated with respect) but having more resources and being able to deploy them to the fight.


In my own thinking I've broken the long-term program into 4 periods:

Breaking Langhorne's Legacy - Basically our story so far. This won't be completed until the secular and cultural power of the CoGA is destroyed, and the threats of the returning Archangels and the Rakurai are dealt with (whatever that may mean).

Human Renaissance - This is mainly about reshaping the dominant culture into something that can accept the reality of human history and the challenges going forward without imploding. Ideally, the truth would gradually come out over several generations, but that wouldn't be as much fun, would it? 8-)

Breakout - Safehold is well outside of any immediate Gbaba threat, but a responsible leadership wouldn't want to rely on that forever. Instead I think they'd mount an aggressive development program aimed at building a civilization that could withstand and defeat a Gbaba assault. That means:
- Focused, long-term military R&D to create a decisive advantage.
- First wave colonies sited for their industrial potential. For a given colony lets say 10 years to terraform, 10 years of intensive settlement/terraforming completion, and 5 years of industrial development. If they build 2 terraforming fleets then they can set up a virtual assembly line of colonies, with a new world opening up every 10 years. Let's say Safehold has a population of 3 billion with a growth rate of 1 percent at the start of this. Population-wise, they could easily support 10 million settlers/year. And these colonies wouldn't be like Operation Ark; they'd have full contact and support from the mother world.
- At least a couple Operation Ark-style safety colonies. They'd have orders not to attempt contact for a century or so, just in case.
- Don't build a big fleet initially, just enough for escort, exploration, and experience. Once they reach a suitable level of tech, then build a battle fleet capable of demolishing any Gbaba attack.

End Game - Once humanity is 'safe' expansion can continue more 'normally'. New colonies could be built for national or cultural reasons. For example: the Church of Langhorne (descendent of the CoGA) might build a limited tech colony where people could live simply according the the Holy Writ. There could be a 'New Corisande' or a 'New Harchong'.

The military up to this point has been built based on existing, limited knowledge of the Gbaba. R&D might refocus a bit to emphasize stealth and Hyperdrive speed to enable scout missions toward/into Gbaba space. The goal would be to get the information humanity will need to decide how to deal with them once and for all.

I see 4 basic options (what I call the 4 B's):
- Beat 'em. Genocide might be simply a long-term policy based on a political process. A decisive defeat could convince them to change that policy. A comparable situation is what happened to Emerald after their fleet was smashed. Nahrmahn basically said 'Well that didn't work, time to try something else.' I think that this is extremely unlikely, but I'm trying to be comprehensive.
- Break 'em. They may be xenophobic and genocidal at a cultural level - perhaps driven by religion or some racial trauma. Humanity could win by almost destroying them, occupying the remainder, and rebuilding their civilization along less destructive lines.
- Burn 'em. Xenophobia may be at the genetic level, where the Gbaba can't be reformed. I hate to use the term 'rabid dog' but it sort of applies - all humanity can do is put them down as quickly as possible. I can see the Federation leadership being very reluctant to do this because we're the good guys, and good guys don't exterminate other guys, but sometimes the worst choice is the only real choice.
- Blow 'em off. 'The best revenge is to live well.' Humanity is well outside of Gbaba space. Maybe far enough that it will be a couple thousand years before the Gbaba can even theoretically detect us. If they're non-expansionist then they're the galactic equivalent of the crazy guy in the woods who patrols his property with a shotgun - it's simpler to avoid him than confront. The cheapest option would be to maintain vigilance, continue to expand and progress. As time passes humanity's advantage will only grow. When/if the the Gbaba discovers us and attacks, dealing with them will be less about survival than pest control.

Now, after going through all this (and congratulations if you made it this far), I have to say that it's pretty certainly not going to happen this way. This is just a framework to organize my own thinking. Kind of the ideal path for an ultimate strategy (not to mention it would lead to about a 20 to 25 volume count for the series :) ). As others have pointed out in this thread there are all sorts of ways this 'best laid plan' could go astray. And I'm certain RFC already has a collection of monkey wrenches ready to throw into the gears. ;)

Anyway, this has been bouncing around my head for a while, so thanks for the opportunity to get it out of my system.

jms
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by 6L6   » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:42 pm

6L6
Commander

Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:37 pm
Location: Sourthern Md. USA

There might be other Safehold type colonies established by civilizations destroyed by the Gbaba. The Federation worlds only touched a small part of the borders of the Gbaba. They must have destroyed many more civilizations than the humans encountered. Could the decendents of Safehold establish contact?
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:04 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

Unknown but an interesting idea.

Of course, one of the fun-and-games would be if one of the other species' refugee worlds had lost some knowledge of their past. They have regained the stars and remember that their old civilization had been destroyed but they lost any information that would identify *who* destroyed their old civilization.

They might assume that the Safehold ships are owned by the species who destroyed their old civilization. :twisted: :twisted:

6L6 wrote:There might be other Safehold type colonies established by civilizations destroyed by the Gbaba. The Federation worlds only touched a small part of the borders of the Gbaba. They must have destroyed many more civilizations than the humans encountered. Could the decendents of Safehold establish contact?
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Top
Re: Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?
Post by Renegade13   » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:26 pm

Renegade13
Commander

Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:56 am

Quite a few good points brought up in this discussion; not going to rehash all of them. Instead, I'm going to give my 2 cents worth.

As noted, Safehold is a long way from even starting the process to return to space, much less effectively combat the Gbaba. The COGA/Group of 4 must be broken first; then the entire planet brought up to a reasonable level of civilization (I say that because based on the textev, there are large sections of the planet where there is no equality or chance for improvement over their basic station)... and THEN the real work of prepping for the Gbaba can begin. That will take centuries (IMHO), before Safehold can develop the combination of technology, industry, and manpower needed to take the fight to the real enemy of humanity.

According to the textev in OAR, human technology was equal to or better than the Gbaba's by the time of the final battle; the only technological advantage that the Gbaba still had was a slight edge in ship speed. THAT is something that can be a priority for research as the humans rebuild.

Realistically, they are facing an unknown time limit; sooner or later the Gbaba will find Safehold. It is an impossibility that humanity would somehow outnumber the Gbaba, so technology will have to be the counter to the Gbaba's numbers. But there will have to be a reasonable balance between quality and quantity for the humans to win - I doubt that they will advance far enough that a tiny amount of super-high quality would be able to overcome the massive numbers of the Gbaba.

Merlin understands this; he is playing 'the long game' overall. The problem is that his basic humanity is making him hate the sacrifices that are being required. The mental and emotional toll is only going to grow - I hope that he will be able to handle that cost without losing the best parts of himself.


And to answer the original question, "Should Safeholdians say NO to Gbaba war?" - I really don't think that they have any choice in the matter. The Gbaba WILL show up one day - if Safehold doesn't prepare, then it will be wiped out.
Top

Return to Safehold