Diesel

Easternmystic wrote:The logic is far less contrived than the on used to justify pteam in the first place.

Easternmystic wrote:
Steam Engines use water heated to steam to drive the pistons. A diesel engine uses the hot exhaust from the combustion to drive the pistons. Seems pretty simple and straight forward to me.

Using fire vine oil as the fuel for the first compression combustion engines does away with the it;s not sun, wind, water or physical labor argument. The fire Vine uses sunlight to produce the oil and human and animal labor is used to gather it and extract it from the plant.

The logic is far less contrived than the on used to justify pteam in the first place.

PeterZ wrote:The justification for steam doesn't rely on using acceptable processes but using something given by archangels and so by definition beneficial in a different way.

I don’t believe the Baron’s notions are going to present any serious problems, but Master Howsmyn’s getting close to the Proscriptions’ limits. I can probably cover his interest in hydraulics by an extension of my attestation for his accumulators, but his proposed steam engines clearly cross the line into exactly the sort of knowledge Jwo-jeng and Langhorne wanted to make certain we’d never go anywhere near.”

“I was afraid you’d say that.”

“In my present mood, that’s actually a powerful recommendation for building the things tomorrow,” Wylsynn said dryly. “Nonetheless, we’re obviously going to have problems if we don’t prepare the ground carefully. Fortunately, all the years I spent condemning intendants and inquisitors who connived at getting around the Proscriptions in return for the proper considerations gave me all sorts of examples of logic-chopping when I approached my new task, and it occurred to me that if I simply borrowed a page from their book, the steam engine problem might not be so insurmountable as I’d first thought.”

“Indeed?” Mahklyn leaned back and raised his eyebrows hopefully.

“Of course not!” Wylsynn assured him. “It’s very simple, Doctor! We’ve used steam and pressure cookers since the Creation in things like food preparation and preservation. There’s nothing new or tainted about generating steam! Who could possibly object to someone’s doing that? And when you come right down to it, producing steam the way Master Howsmyn is proposing is simply a way of generating wind pressure on demand, isn’t it? Of course it is! And we’ve used windmills since the Creation, too. For that matter, wind is one of Jwo-jeng’s allowable trinity of wind, water, and muscle! So except for the novel notion of making wind where and how it’s most urgently required, I see no barrier under the Proscriptions to the development of Master Howsmyn’s new device.”

Weird Harold wrote:

Easternmystic wrote:The logic is far less contrived than the on used to justify pteam in the first place.

In a steam engine, water is heated and changes state to drive a piston (or turbine) and then changes state back into liquid water. It is in Pater Wylsyn's words, "water in another form" but still water power and within the limits of "Wind, Water, and Muscle."


An internal combustion burns (explodes) a fuel and in the process, that fuel ceases to exist and is replaced by toxic byproducts. Nowhere in the process is "Wind, Water, and Muscle" present in a recognizable form. The input isn't Water and the exhaust isn't Wind ('cause "wind" is breathable.)

As long as the Proscriptions limit power sources to "Wind, Water, and Muscle" internal combustion engines are going to be a very hard sell to inquisitors and man-on-the-street alike.

Weird Harold wrote:An internal combustion burns (explodes) a fuel and in the process, that fuel ceases to exist and is replaced by toxic byproducts. Nowhere in the process is "Wind, Water, and Muscle" present in a recognizable form. The input isn't Water and the exhaust isn't Wind ('cause "wind" is breathable.)

chrisd wrote:Actually, Water is produced as part of the combustion process.

Dutch46 wrote:There is a a distinct difference between exploding(detonating) and burning rapidly (deflagration). Diesels burn their fuel rapidly and so are well within the confines of the prescriptions.

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The justification for steam doesn't rely on using acceptable processes but using something given by archangels and so by definition beneficial in a different way.

The justification for steam engines is not, as I've earlier claimed "just another form of water" but "producing Wind on demand." Depending on how Pater Wylsynn defines "wind" Diesels might be weasel-worded into approval. IMHO, I don't think they will be in the near future because of the elaborate test Merlin set up to test the idea of steam power.

The actual approval of steam engines:

I don’t believe the Baron’s notions are going to present any serious problems, but Master Howsmyn’s getting close to the Proscriptions’ limits. I can probably cover his interest in hydraulics by an extension of my attestation for his accumulators, but his proposed steam engines clearly cross the line into exactly the sort of knowledge Jwo-jeng and Langhorne wanted to make certain we’d never go anywhere near.”

“I was afraid you’d say that.”

“In my present mood, that’s actually a powerful recommendation for building the things tomorrow,” Wylsynn said dryly. “Nonetheless, we’re obviously going to have problems if we don’t prepare the ground carefully. Fortunately, all the years I spent condemning intendants and inquisitors who connived at getting around the Proscriptions in return for the proper considerations gave me all sorts of examples of logic-chopping when I approached my new task, and it occurred to me that if I simply borrowed a page from their book, the steam engine problem might not be so insurmountable as I’d first thought.”

“Indeed?” Mahklyn leaned back and raised his eyebrows hopefully.

“Of course not!” Wylsynn assured him. “It’s very simple, Doctor! We’ve used steam and pressure cookers since the Creation in things like food preparation and preservation. There’s nothing new or tainted about generating steam! Who could possibly object to someone’s doing that? And when you come right down to it, producing steam the way Master Howsmyn is proposing is simply a way of generating wind pressure on demand, isn’t it? Of course it is! And we’ve used windmills since the Creation, too. For that matter, wind is one of Jwo-jeng’s allowable trinity of wind, water, and muscle! So except for the novel notion of making wind where and how it’s most urgently required, I see no barrier under the Proscriptions to the development of Master Howsmyn’s new device.”

Weird Harold wrote:

Easternmystic wrote:The logic is far less contrived than the on used to justify pteam in the first place.

In a steam engine, water is heated and changes state to drive a piston (or turbine) and then changes state back into liquid water. It is in Pater Wylsyn's words, "water in another form" but still water power and within the limits of "Wind, Water, and Muscle."


An internal combustion burns (explodes) a fuel and in the process, that fuel ceases to exist and is replaced by toxic byproducts. Nowhere in the process is "Wind, Water, and Muscle" present in a recognizable form. The input isn't Water and the exhaust isn't Wind ('cause "wind" is breathable.)

As long as the Proscriptions limit power sources to "Wind, Water, and Muscle" internal combustion engines are going to be a very hard sell to inquisitors and man-on-the-street alike.

n7axw wrote:Weird Harold, in his discussion with Housmyn, Father Paityr admits that the rational behind his attestation for steam is bogus. He calls it chop logic. Now if you can "chop logic" an attestation for steam, you can probably "chop logic"your way to diesel or most anything you need to do.

Don

“In my present mood, that’s actually a powerful recommendation for building the things tomorrow,” Wylsynn said dryly. “Nonetheless, we’re obviously going to have problems if we don’t prepare the ground carefully.