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MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware

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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:57 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Kytheros,

Thank you, thank you David Weber very much for all you do!

And for all you leak to us; thank you, thank you very kindly too! :-)

I can't help wondering if these river ironclads are described at the end of the book, since there's nothing to provoke their construction at the beginning of MTaT, though we have RFC's warning about Clyntahn building schooners up all the mainland rivers to be commerce destroyers against Charis's merchant shipping.

So we may not see them in action until #7.

If I remember correctly the design tonnage and dimensions aside from the free-board are close to the Monitor's, while 3 guns each for the bow and aft makes it rather broad compared to the casemated confederate ironclads while more similar to the union's river iron and timberclads though at least twice the tonnage.
The 11.5 foot freeboard will be a definite improvement for seaworthiness obviously and I suspect also avoids the guns being unable to elevate high enough to engage shore batteries on any high bluff etc.

The angled 3" armor ought to be thick enough for the Go4's 25 pounder ~5" iron cannonballs.

These river ironclads remind me of the "double-ended" paddle-wheelers that patrolled southern rivers because
given the draft of 6', their screw propellers are pretty small, so their power efficiency isn't going to be high.

OTOH, remember the USS Miantonomoh (albeit much larger) crossed the Atlantic twice without a problem, being under tow as a precaution not necessity; to visit Europe and the Russian Czar in particular over the space of an almost 14 month voyage.

BTW, did anyone know that during the 1820's Canada sent timber rafts to England with no keels that looked like fully rigged sailing ships that were just dismantled when they got to England which they all did.

So the draft aspect may not be as critical as some think.

L


Kytheros wrote:From what I remember, so I could be totally off base, the Monitor had very little freeboard. Loosely analogous to a surfaced submarine, with the turret being the conning tower.

That being said, from the description the River-class will look a bit more like something along the lines of the Merrimack, rather than the Monitor.
Still, storms at sea won't be fun for the crews.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:46 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

kbus888 wrote:Hi folks (and Mr Weber)

Displacement ?? Total weight while empty ??

Bunkerage ?? Maximum cargo weight ??

Freeboard ?? Ocean level to top deck while full of cargo ??

I am not an expert on nautical terms

?? Can anyone either explain these terms or give me a URL where I can find the definitions myself ??

I need a lot of help here !!!

R


Sorry.

"Displacement" is the amount of seawater (expressed in tons) which a ship's hull displaces at a given loading. It gives a more accurate value for the ship's actual weight than the older "burden" tonnage calculation did. "Burden" tonnage (also sometimes shown as "burthen," especially for ships from earlier centuries) was a calculation of the cargo capacity of a merchant hull of the same dimensions, thus USS Constitution had a tonnage of 1,570 or so during her active career (when it was calculated as "burden") but has a displacement tonnage of around 2,100-2,200 tons.

Even "displacement" values for ships can be slippery when it comes to comparing them, however. When the Washington Disarmament Conference wrote the Naval Treaties which limited the size of battleships, they had to specifically define "standard displacement" in terms of a vessel's displacement as intended for sea duty, with one half designed fuel capacity on board, machinery fully lubricated, steam plant with designed water levels and reserve feedwater, designed ammunition load, etc. Even so, the treaty participants discovered that they could "save" hundreds of tons through purely paper maneuvers. For example, the US Navy reduced its "normal" ammunition allotment from 100 rounds per battleship gun to only 80 . . . but provided sufficient magazine space for an "emergency war load" which actually pushed the ammunition allotment back to slightly above the previous level. Deciding how many boats the ship would carry as part of its "normal" allotment was another way to cheat. Or, then, you could always take the Japanese approach and simply lie, telling the world that your eight-inch only displaced the 10,000 tons the treaties allowed when they actually displaced in excess of 13,000 tons. But I digress.

"Bunkerage" refers to the fuel capacity of the ship. Coal, the initial seagoing fuel, was carried in "bunkers," in essence storage holds with external access from deck level to allow coal to be put into them and doors ("scuttles") to allow the stokers to remove coal from them in or near the fire rooms. When sealed fire rooms were adopted to allow for "forced draft," the coal scuttles had to be outside the fire rooms' airlocks, which were required in order to maintain the overpressure in the fire rooms which in effect "fanned" the fires under the boilers to produce higher temperatures. Today, with liquid fuels, "bunkers" are fuel tanks which are normally located in the bottoms of the ships, which is very useful for stability purposes. Using coal-fired boilers, naval designers used the coal bunkers for what amounted to additional side protection, using the coal itself to stop projectiles and the bunkers as a sort of explosion chamber which was supposed to at least partially contain and channel the explosive force of detonating shells. What was not realized for many years — until World War One's experience with battle damage — was that it was impossible to incorporate watertight bulkheads into coal bunkers, because the shock effect of explosions sprung or warped the scuttles, which left big, water-gushing holes in the bulkheads in the event of a torpedo hit.

Steamships are designed to float at a specific level — "design waterline" — with the loads aboard that the designer expects them to carry. When you see the bunkerage data tabulated for a vessel, it will usually (especially for coal-fired ships) be listed as two values with a "/" between them. Thus the River-class at "480/1,172," which indicates that the ships will float at their "design waterline" with 480 tons of coal on board but that they have sufficient additional space in their bunkers for another 692 tons. That higher total — the 1,172-ton figure — represents the ships' maximum fuel load, and will cause them to float deeper than their design waterline.

A properly designed vessel should still be perfectly safe under normal sea conditions at the maximum load, however the draft will be deeper and what may be safe for "normal sea conditions" may be distinctly unsafe in combat. For example, armored ships normally have "belt armor," which is designed to protect the side of the ship against horizontal shell hits. Its primary function, however, is to protect machinery spaces (normally located below the waterline whenever possible) and the waterline itself against penetrating hits which would flood the ship, so it normally doesn't extend all the way to the top of the hull. That is, there are usually levels within the hull above the belt but below the "weather deck" (the lowest deck exposed to the weather [i.e., not enclosed within the hull]). This means that if a ship is so heavily loaded that all or a significant portion of its armored belt is immersed, rather than extending above the waterline as intended, it loses almost all of its protective value and hits which would not normally have flooded the ship (because they would have been well above the waterline) instead allow flooding.

It was not uncommon during the period of coal-fired boilers, especially when steam pressures were relatively low and hence less efficient, for ships being deployed over great distances to leave port with deck loads of coal, in addition to that which was in their bunkers. In conditions like that, freeboard (see below [G]) could be dangerously reduced, although generally not to a degree which would have threatened the ship's safety under normal sea conditions. When the Russian fleet steamed from the Baltic to the Battle of Tsushima, its ships left port with heavy deck loads, which considerably increased the distance they could steam before being required to refuel ("coal," used as a verb). With the advent of oil-fueling, that became impractical, but the increased caloric efficiency of oil, coupled with the substantially higher steam pressures available, also enormously increased a ship's cruising radius for the same tonnage of fuel. It was . . . unusual in the extreme to see a European coal-fired battleship with a designed endurance of much over 3,000 miles prior to Dreadnought (1905), and even though that had been increased to somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 miles for the majority of British dreadnoughts between 1905 and 1916 (the Battle of Jutland), it was still substantially less than that for many of their ships (Canada = 4,400 miles; Agincourt = 4,500 miles Revenge [oil-fired] = 4,200 miles, etc.). That relatively short cruising endurance was acceptable for European waters but explains why the Royal Navy required a worldwide system of coaling stations. It also explains why American battleships were designed with stupendous endurances compared to their European counterparts; it's roughly 3,500 miles from New York to the English Channel, and the US didn't have coaling stations. American ships had 5,000-mile radii while European vessels were being designed for 3,000 miles, and by 1910 that had been pushed up to 8,000 for the US, while the standard became 10,000 with the Nevada-class designed in 1911. Many European naval historians have failed to understand the logic behind such long endurances, and even many who have understood that American naval architects had to design ships that could sail all the way to European waters, fight a battle, and then sail home again, have failed to appreciate that one of the reasons "backward" American battleship designers stuck with reciprocating machinery as long as they did, rather than following the more "advanced" Europeans into using turbines, was that reciprocating machinery delivered lower sustained speeds but were far more fuel-efficient at lower cruising speeds than current-generation turbines.

But I digress . . . again. [G]

"Freeboard" is normally defined as the distance between water level and the edge of a vessel's weather deck. That is, the distance (height) between the waterline and the edge of the "top deck" of the hull but not the top of the superstructure.

In this case, however, I'm using the term somewhat differently. These ships are "casemate ironclads," which means that rather than having their guns mounted in rotating turrets, like the Monitor, they carry them on normal gundecks inside armored superstructures ("casemates") with gun ports. The "freeboard" in this case is the armored freeboard — i.e., the distance from the design waterline to the top of the casemate. They have short foredecks and afterdecks, mainly as someplace for the line-handlers to stand, but the freeboard to deck-edge is only about 5 or 4 feet, and the lower sills of the gun ports are only about 6 feet above the design waterline, which is only about half the height required to efficiently work the guns in a normal seaway. That is, the height required to keep waves from washing in through the gun ports in the aforesaid "normal seaway." This is why frigates, with only a single gundeck, normally have between 10 and 14 feet of freeboard to their port sills. Ships-of-the-line, with the tonnage constraints imposed by the great mass of guns crammed into their hulls, seldom had that kind of freeboard to their lowest gundecks. Until after about 1820 or 1830, construction techniques restricted the length of a wooden-hulled ship to a maximum of only about 200 feet, which imposed a hard limit on displacement, which in turn meant that cramming 74-100 and guns aboard a ship automatically meant that it was going to sit a lot deeper in the water. What it also meant, however, was that you were limited to no more than about 30 gun ports per gundeck, because of the restriction on length, so getting those extra guns on board also meant that you needed additional armed decks. That meant the lowest of those decks had to be closer to the water and that you simply had to accept that under adverse sea conditions (i.e., normal conditions outside harbors and similarly sheltered reaches), you weren't going to be able to use the lowest gundeck's guns — which were always the heaviest ones on board.

As long as the gun ports could be properly sealed, however, they didn't normally pose any threat to the ship's survival even under highly adverse conditions, since the water couldn't get in through them, anyway. So while the River-class ironclads couldn't work their guns under typical mid-Atlantic conditions, they have plenty of freeboard for river defense or even for coast defense under normal sea state conditions, and their lack of freeboard in itself doesn't pose any significant threat to their survival under most blue water sailing conditions.

Hope this helps and wasn't too digressive.

Oh, one other thing I should mention while I'm at it, although I've mentioned it several times in the books. The term "knot" is actually very specific — it means "1 nautical mile per hour" (which is why some of us tend to cringe when we hear someone say "the ship was moving at ten knots per hour"). Now, a nautical mile and a statute mile are not the same animal, which means that when someone talks about an Old Earth ship moving at ten knots (ten nautical miles per hour), the speed for landlubbers is 11.5078 (approximately [G]) statute miles per hour (or, for our metric friends, 18.52 km/h). On Safehold, courtesy of Eric Langhorne, there are only statute miles, so when these ships' maximum speed is given, it is approximately 13% lower than the same speed — in knots — from our own maritime experience. In other words, these ships are slower than they would seem from the listed speeds to someone accustomed to thinking in terrestrial maritime terms.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by kbus888   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:21 pm

kbus888
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Mr Weber

I am honoured that you took some of your valuable time to answer my questions so promptly and at such length.

Thank you sir - - you are a gentleman !

Robert Denis


runsforcelery wrote:
kbus888 wrote:Hi folks (and Mr Weber)

Displacement ?? Total weight while empty ??

Bunkerage ?? Maximum cargo weight ??

Freeboard ?? Ocean level to top deck while full of cargo ??

I am not an expert on nautical terms

?? Can anyone either explain these terms or give me a URL where I can find the definitions myself ??

I need a lot of help here !!!

R


Sorry.

"Displacement" is the amount of seawater (expressed in tons) which a ship's hull displaces at a given loading. It gives a more accurate value for the ship's actual weight than the older "burden" tonnage calculation did. "Burden" tonnage (also sometimes shown as "burthen," especially for ships from earlier centuries) was a calculation of the cargo capacity of a merchant hull of the same dimensions, thus USS Constitution had a tonnage of 1,570 or so during her active career (when it was calculated as "burden") but has a displacement tonnage of around 2,100-2,200 tons.

Even "displacement" values for ships can be slippery when it comes to comparing them, however. When the Washington Disarmament Conference wrote the Naval Treaties which limited the size of battleships, they had to specifically define "standard displacement" in terms of a vessel's displacement as intended for sea duty, with one half designed fuel capacity on board, machinery fully lubricated, steam plant with designed water levels and reserve feedwater, designed ammunition load, etc. Even so, the treaty participants discovered that they could "save" hundreds of tons through purely paper maneuvers. For example, the US Navy reduced its "normal" ammunition allotment from 100 rounds per battleship gun to only 80 . . . but provided sufficient magazine space for an "emergency war load" which actually pushed the ammunition allotment back to slightly above the previous level. Deciding how many boats the ship would carry as part of its "normal" allotment was another way to cheat. Or, then, you could always take the Japanese approach and simply lie, telling the world that your eight-inch only displaced the 10,000 tons the treaties allowed when they actually displaced in excess of 13,000 tons. But I digress.

"Bunkerage" refers to the fuel capacity of the ship. Coal, the initial seagoing fuel, was carried in "bunkers," in essence storage holds with external access from deck level to allow coal to be put into them and doors ("scuttles") to allow the stokers to remove coal from them in or near the fire rooms. When sealed fire rooms were adopted to allow for "forced draft," the coal scuttles had to be outside the fire rooms' airlocks, which were required in order to maintain the overpressure in the fire rooms which in effect "fanned" the fires under the boilers to produce higher temperatures. Today, with liquid fuels, "bunkers" are fuel tanks which are normally located in the bottoms of the ships, which is very useful for stability purposes. Using coal-fired boilers, naval designers used the coal bunkers for what amounted to additional side protection, using the coal itself to stop projectiles and the bunkers as a sort of explosion chamber which was supposed to at least partially contain and channel the explosive force of detonating shells. What was not realized for many years — until World War One's experience with battle damage — was that it was impossible to incorporate watertight bulkheads into coal bunkers, because the shock effect of explosions sprung or warped the scuttles, which left big, water-gushing holes in the bulkheads in the event of a torpedo hit.

Steamships are designed to float at a specific level — "design waterline" — with the loads aboard that the designer expects them to carry. When you see the bunkerage data tabulated for a vessel, it will usually (especially for coal-fired ships) be listed as two values with a "/" between them. Thus the River-class at "480/1,172," which indicates that the ships will float at their "design waterline" with 480 tons of coal on board but that they have sufficient additional space in their bunkers for another 692 tons. That higher total — the 1,172-ton figure — represents the ships' maximum fuel load, and will cause them to float deeper than their design waterline.

A properly designed vessel should still be perfectly safe under normal sea conditions at the maximum load, however the draft will be deeper and what may be safe for "normal sea conditions" may be distinctly unsafe in combat. For example, armored ships normally have "belt armor," which is designed to protect the side of the ship against horizontal shell hits. Its primary function, however, is to protect machinery spaces (normally located below the waterline whenever possible) and the waterline itself against penetrating hits which would flood the ship, so it normally doesn't extend all the way to the top of the hull. That is, there are usually levels within the hull above the belt but below the "weather deck" (the lowest deck exposed to the weather [i.e., not enclosed within the hull]). This means that if a ship is so heavily loaded that all or a significant portion of its armored belt is immersed, rather than extending above the waterline as intended, it loses almost all of its protective value and hits which would not normally have flooded the ship (because they would have been well above the waterline) instead allow flooding.

It was not uncommon during the period of coal-fired boilers, especially when steam pressures were relatively low and hence less efficient, for ships being deployed over great distances to leave port with deck loads of coal, in addition to that which was in their bunkers. In conditions like that, freeboard (see below [G]) could be dangerously reduced, although generally not to a degree which would have threatened the ship's safety under normal sea conditions. When the Russian fleet steamed from the Baltic to the Battle of Tsushima, its ships left port with heavy deck loads, which considerably increased the distance they could steam before being required to refuel ("coal," used as a verb). With the advent of oil-fueling, that became impractical, but the increased caloric efficiency of oil, coupled with the substantially higher steam pressures available, also enormously increased a ship's cruising radius for the same tonnage of fuel. It was . . . unusual in the extreme to see a European coal-fired battleship with a designed endurance of much over 3,000 miles prior to Dreadnought (1905), and even though that had been increased to somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 miles for the majority of British dreadnoughts between 1905 and 1916 (the Battle of Jutland), it was still substantially less than that for many of their ships (Canada = 4,400 miles; Agincourt = 4,500 miles Revenge [oil-fired] = 4,200 miles, etc.). That relatively short cruising endurance was acceptable for European waters but explains why the Royal Navy required a worldwide system of coaling stations. It also explains why American battleships were designed with stupendous endurances compared to their European counterparts; it's roughly 3,500 miles from New York to the English Channel, and the US didn't have coaling stations. American ships had 5,000-mile radii while European vessels were being designed for 3,000 miles, and by 1910 that had been pushed up to 8,000 for the US, while the standard became 10,000 with the Nevada-class designed in 1911. Many European naval historians have failed to understand the logic behind such long endurances, and even many who have understood that American naval architects had to design ships that could sail all the way to European waters, fight a battle, and then sail home again, have failed to appreciate that one of the reasons "backward" American battleship designers stuck with reciprocating machinery as long as they did, rather than following the more "advanced" Europeans into using turbines, was that reciprocating machinery delivered lower sustained speeds but were far more fuel-efficient at lower cruising speeds than current-generation turbines.

But I digress . . . again. [G]

"Freeboard" is normally defined as the distance between water level and the edge of a vessel's weather deck. That is, the distance (height) between the waterline and the edge of the "top deck" of the hull but not the top of the superstructure.

In this case, however, I'm using the term somewhat differently. These ships are "casemate ironclads," which means that rather than having their guns mounted in rotating turrets, like the Monitor, they carry them on normal gundecks inside armored superstructures ("casemates") with gun ports. The "freeboard" in this case is the armored freeboard — i.e., the distance from the design waterline to the top of the casemate. They have short foredecks and afterdecks, mainly as someplace for the line-handlers to stand, but the freeboard to deck-edge is only about 5 or 4 feet, and the lower sills of the gun ports are only about 6 feet above the design waterline, which is only about half the height required to efficiently work the guns in a normal seaway. That is, the height required to keep waves from washing in through the gun ports in the aforesaid "normal seaway." This is why frigates, with only a single gundeck, normally have between 10 and 14 feet of freeboard to their port sills. Ships-of-the-line, with the tonnage constraints imposed by the great mass of guns crammed into their hulls, seldom had that kind of freeboard to their lowest gundecks. Until after about 1820 or 1830, construction techniques restricted the length of a wooden-hulled ship to a maximum of only about 200 feet, which imposed a hard limit on displacement, which in turn meant that cramming 74-100 and guns aboard a ship automatically meant that it was going to sit a lot deeper in the water. What it also meant, however, was that you were limited to no more than about 30 gun ports per gundeck, because of the restriction on length, so getting those extra guns on board also meant that you needed additional armed decks. That meant the lowest of those decks had to be closer to the water and that you simply had to accept that under adverse sea conditions (i.e., normal conditions outside harbors and similarly sheltered reaches), you weren't going to be able to use the lowest gundeck's guns — which were always the heaviest ones on board.

As long as the gun ports could be properly sealed, however, they didn't normally pose any threat to the ship's survival even under highly adverse conditions, since the water couldn't get in through them, anyway. So while the River-class ironclads couldn't work their guns under typical mid-Atlantic conditions, they have plenty of freeboard for river defense or even for coast defense under normal sea state conditions, and their lack of freeboard in itself doesn't pose any significant threat to their survival under most blue water sailing conditions.

Hope this helps and wasn't too digressive.

Oh, one other thing I should mention while I'm at it, although I've mentioned it several times in the books. The term "knot" is actually very specific — it means "1 nautical mile per hour" (which is why some of us tend to cringe when we hear someone say "the ship was moving at ten knots per hour"). Now, a nautical mile and a statute mile are not the same animal, which means that when someone talks about an Old Earth ship moving at ten knots (ten nautical miles per hour), the speed for landlubbers is 11.5078 (approximately [G]) statute miles per hour (or, for our metric friends, 18.52 km/h). On Safehold, courtesy of Eric Langhorne, there are only statute miles, so when these ships' maximum speed is given, it is approximately 13% lower than the same speed — in knots — from our own maritime experience. In other words, these ships are slower than they would seem from the listed speeds to someone accustomed to thinking in terrestrial maritime terms.
..//* *\\
(/(..^..)\)
.._/'*'\_
.(,,,)^(,,,)

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the happiness of another
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by walt   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:18 pm

walt
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:26 pm

lyonheart wrote:


If I remember correctly the design tonnage and dimensions aside from the free-board are close to the Monitor's, while 3 guns each for the bow and aft makes it rather broad compared to the casemated confederate ironclads while more similar to the union's river iron and timberclads though at least twice the tonnage.
The 11.5 foot freeboard will be a definite improvement for seaworthiness obviously and I suspect also avoids the guns being unable to elevate high enough to engage shore batteries on any high bluff etc.

The angled 3" armor ought to be thick enough for the Go4's 25 pounder ~5" iron cannonballs.

These river ironclads remind me of the "double-ended" paddle-wheelers that patrolled southern rivers because
given the draft of 6', their screw propellers are pretty small, so their power efficiency isn't going to be high.

OTOH, remember the USS Miantonomoh (albeit much larger) crossed the Atlantic twice without a problem, being under tow as a precaution not necessity; to visit Europe and the Russian Czar in particular over the space of an almost 14 month voyage.

BTW, did anyone know that during the 1820's Canada sent timber rafts to England with no keels that looked like fully rigged sailing ships that were just dismantled when they got to England which they all did.

So the draft aspect may not be as critical as some think.

L


Kytheros wrote:From what I remember, so I could be totally off base, the Monitor had very little freeboard. Loosely analogous to a surfaced submarine, with the turret being the conning tower.

That being said, from the description the River-class will look a bit more like something along the lines of the Merrimack, rather than the Monitor.
Still, storms at sea won't be fun for the crews.



I immediately thought of the Cairo/Corondolet class - Eads Turtles. Of course, under many conditions they had negative freeboard - as RFC was saying they depended on closed gun ports not to sink. Of course, the Turtles were a first effort and even designs a few months later were better.

OT: I was amazed to read that a twin turret "Monitor" went through the Straits of Magellan post-war. Those had about 6 inches freeboard at their best.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:04 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

PeterZ wrote:One assumes that the gun boat can operate in Howell Bay. May not be fun during lively weather but that sort of closed conditions would limit how rough the seas get. I suspect that these boats would also work well in similar regions in and around the Gulf of Dohlar.

As for moving it into the gulf of Dohlar, it would be easiest of RFC used the cannal he forgot to mention existed between the Gulf of Jahras and Salthar Bay. As for transporting these specialty vehicles, yes very entertaining. Likely the task will be performed by our beloved Flag Lt., the Duke of Dracos.

Because they are specialty vehicles, they will not be in broader production until after their deep sea cousins are deployed. Those more ambitious cousins are the real stuff of speculation. If one were to assume the boiler design will be standard, expanding the number of boilers would scale the power output for larger ships. So, are we looking at a steel framed, wooden hull, armored ship with hydrolic/pnuematic winches about 400 feet long and displacing 6k-7k tons? Powered with 6-8 boilers and 900 tons of bunkerage with similar endurance as the river gun boat, yet still ship or barque rigged with 3 masts? Named Wahrriohr perhaps? No not that, perhaps simply Victory.

I hope so.





There is no canal from Salthar Bay to the Gulf of Jahras; there's one from Salthar Bay to Silkiah Bay.

There are, in fact, lots more canals than most of you guys have yet realized, I think. Or, put another way, looking at the Church's massive naval ship building and armament programs, how did you think they were moving the tonnages involved after Charis essentially closed the seas to them completely? If you go back and look, you'll see Duchairn lecturing Clyntahn on the advantages of oceanic transport and water transport, yet they still managed to transport the iron to cast thousands of guns, the timber needed to build hundreds of galleons, etc., etc. How did they manage this? Hmmmmm?

The truth is that most (not all) of the mainland realms have very extensive canal systems, some of which have been around since before the Day of Creation, having been dug by Pei Shan-wei and her crews as a way to provide reasonably efficient transportation to a civilization which was to be forever forbidden railroads or steamships. The existence of draft dragons helped a lot in this regard, too, allowing them to be . . . rather more ambitious in their barges (and lock sizes) than was possible with animal traction here on Old Earth.

The reason you haven't seen them before is that "the out islands" were all settled well after the mainland. Charis never really needed them, given the advantages of Howell Bay, and Chisholm and Coirsande are also (effectively) really big islands who, once again, had both far less need of inland water transportation and (until quite recently) population bases too small to provide the immense quantities of labor necessary for large-scale canal building in a pre-dynamite society.

As another aside, the availability/non-availability of canal transportation had a lot to do with who was able to build (and arm) their allotted galleons on schedule, as will become evident when/if you see a map of the actual canal network.

Now, the canal from Salthar Bay to Silkiah isn't really suitable for ovean-going galleons with drafts of well over 20 feet, but you probably could get a few galleys through it. Maybe even, oh, I dunno . . . a few ironclad galleys with heavy, bow-mounted, shell-firing artillery pieces? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

As for building Warrior . . . well, I had something a mite more challenging in mind. [G] Not to say you aren't headed in the right direction, of course . . .

And the name of the first two will be Haarahld VII and Gwyllym Manthyr, just in case anyone in Zion might need a little hint about Charisian attitudes towards the esteemed Grand Inquisitor.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by Renegade13   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:27 pm

Renegade13
Commander

Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:56 am

First of all, THANK YOU RFC!!!! Even though it is kind of mean to tease us like that, the info is still quite fascinating!!

Many of my initial thoughts have been dealt with by follow up posts, but I still have a few ideas.

Even if they initially didn't want to use these designs a lot in open waters (due to unfamiliarity with the design and handling aspects, and/or an abundance of caution), there are still plenty of places where those ships could absolutely rule the areas that they could reach.
In areas where the wind conditions made it more difficult and dangerous for galleons to operate, these ships could operate with near impunity - because they don't rely on the wind for anything! Think of all the advantages that galleys used to have over galleons IN THE PROPER CONDITIONS, matched with NONE of the galley's disadvantages!! In conditions that would leave a galleon (or even one of Charis' nimble schooners) unable to move, these ships can go where they want, when they want. Add the fact that they will be able to operate at a speed that will astound all who see them, and once again an entire style of Safeholdian naval warfare will become obsolete. A small number of these ships will be able to bottle up MUCH larger numbers of enemy galleons - and THAT will allow the rest of the Charisian fleet (the best galleons on Safehold, mind you) to perform other tasks.... oh, say, escort large transport fleets of EoC land forces to wherever they are needed; or strike at any shore target that they think is worthwhile.

The ironclads could also be used to lead strikes on heavily fortified ports - they can smash their way through defenses that would give the EoC's wooden ships trouble (and would save lots of Charisian sailors' lives along the way!).

OTOH, the only person who actually knows what will happen isn't going to tell us at the moment, so only time will tell!!!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:13 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Renegade13,

Again I completely agree with you regarding thanking RFC for this intriguing data-dump.

But again I suspect we won't see them in action until #7.

One of the things I forgot in my post above was the force multiplier effect of steam tugs replacing the galley tugs that we've all read about throughout the series.

The capability of steam tugs to move ships in and out of port much faster is going to dramatically speed up port operations, as will steam winches and cranes etc; so a smaller Charisian merchant marine could still handle the same volume, even though its going to be shifting to steel or iron construction, or some composite iron-wood in the near term that will be much bigger than the mainland expects NTM faster.

L


Renegade13 wrote:First of all, THANK YOU RFC!!!! Even though it is kind of mean to tease us like that, the info is still quite fascinating!!

Many of my initial thoughts have been dealt with by follow up posts, but I still have a few ideas.

Even if they initially didn't want to use these designs a lot in open waters (due to unfamiliarity with the design and handling aspects, and/or an abundance of caution), there are still plenty of places where those ships could absolutely rule the areas that they could reach.
In areas where the wind conditions made it more difficult and dangerous for galleons to operate, these ships could operate with near impunity - because they don't rely on the wind for anything! Think of all the advantages that galleys used to have over galleons IN THE PROPER CONDITIONS, matched with NONE of the galley's disadvantages!! In conditions that would leave a galleon (or even one of Charis' nimble schooners) unable to move, these ships can go where they want, when they want. Add the fact that they will be able to operate at a speed that will astound all who see them, and once again an entire style of Safeholdian naval warfare will become obsolete. A small number of these ships will be able to bottle up MUCH larger numbers of enemy galleons - and THAT will allow the rest of the Charisian fleet (the best galleons on Safehold, mind you) to perform other tasks.... oh, say, escort large transport fleets of EoC land forces to wherever they are needed; or strike at any shore target that they think is worthwhile.

The ironclads could also be used to lead strikes on heavily fortified ports - they can smash their way through defenses that would give the EoC's wooden ships trouble (and would save lots of Charisian sailors' lives along the way!).

OTOH, the only person who actually knows what will happen isn't going to tell us at the moment, so only time will tell!!!
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:16 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
Because they are specialty vehicles, they will not be in broader production until after their deep sea cousins are deployed. Those more ambitious cousins are the real stuff of speculation. If one were to assume the boiler design will be standard, expanding the number of boilers would scale the power output for larger ships. So, are we looking at a steel framed, wooden hull, armored ship with hydrolic/pnuematic winches about 400 feet long and displacing 6k-7k tons? Powered with 6-8 boilers and 900 tons of bunkerage with similar endurance as the river gun boat, yet still ship or barque rigged with 3 masts? Named Wahrriohr perhaps? No not that, perhaps simply Victory.

I hope so.





There is no canal from Salthar Bay to the Gulf of Jahras; there's one from Salthar Bay to Silkiah Bay.

There are, in fact, lots more canals than most of you guys have yet realized, I think. Or, put another way, looking at the Church's massive naval ship building and armament programs, how did you think they were moving the tonnages involved after Charis essentially closed the seas to them completely? If you go back and look, you'll see Duchairn lecturing Clyntahn on the advantages of oceanic transport and water transport, yet they still managed to transport the iron to cast thousands of guns, the timber needed to build hundreds of galleons, etc., etc. How did they manage this? Hmmmmm?

The truth is that most (not all) of the mainland realms have very extensive canal systems, some of which have been around since before the Day of Creation, having been dug by Pei Shan-wei and her crews as a way to provide reasonably efficient transportation to a civilization which was to be forever forbidden railroads or steamships. The existence of draft dragons helped a lot in this regard, too, allowing them to be . . . rather more ambitious in their barges (and lock sizes) than was possible with animal traction here on Old Earth.

The reason you haven't seen them before is that "the out islands" were all settled well after the mainland. Charis never really needed them, given the advantages of Howell Bay, and Chisholm and Coirsande are also (effectively) really big islands who, once again, had both far less need of inland water transportation and (until quite recently) population bases too small to provide the immense quantities of labor necessary for large-scale canal building in a pre-dynamite society.

As another aside, the availability/non-availability of canal transportation had a lot to do with who was able to build (and arm) their allotted galleons on schedule, as will become evident when/if you see a map of the actual canal network.

Now, the canal from Salthar Bay to Silkiah isn't really suitable for ovean-going galleons with drafts of well over 20 feet, but you probably could get a few galleys through it. Maybe even, oh, I dunno . . . a few ironclad galleys with heavy, bow-mounted, shell-firing artillery pieces? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

As for building Warrior . . . well, I had something a mite more challenging in mind. [G] Not to say you aren't headed in the right direction, of course . . .

And the name of the first two will be Haarahld VII and Gwyllym Manthyr, just in case anyone in Zion might need a little hint about Charisian attitudes towards the esteemed Grand Inquisitor
.


Thanks for the response, RFC. You provided pleanty of food for thought.

I was hoping that you planned on a protected cruiser. The specs for the Gwyllym Manthyr wouldn't approximate the HMS Challenger would it? Displace about 5,900 tons and run 3 double boilers. Half the tonnage of the Warrior but faster. On second thought the draft on Challenger is closer to 20 feet than Warrior. What are the odds that whatever protected cruiser design we see in Safehold #7 will NOT be able to take advantage of that Silkiah/Salthar cannal? Not odds I'ld take, that's for sure. Well the locks on the cannal may not be able to manage the 350 foot long ship. They might be able to if the volume of barges was heavy enough. That is possible considering the amount of trade that seemed to flow through Silkiah.

Its either design the protected cruiser to take advantage of the cannal or start developing coaling stations right away. They still need to develop them now, but will still be able to prosecute a naval war in the Gulf of Dohlar using that Silkiah/Salthar cannal.

One of the big strategic questions we will find out about is how Silkiah views the war and which side they plan on joining. That cannal you mentioned, RFC, pretty much makes Silkiah a must have ally/possession for Charis. The use of that cannal allows Charis to take out the schooner yards based out of the Gulf of Dohlar as well as concentrate their offesive fleet in Telesberg or Tarot. Chisholm may have a powerful fleet, but it would be primarily defensive.

Thank you again again for the response. I'll go back to re-reading HFaF now with all these new tidbits you dropped. I think I'll break out the MacAllan's tonight as I read.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:10 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi RFC!

From past posts, I've made it clear Canals are very cool and important, so may we have more information concerning them, including maps, pretty please?

We haven't seen any rivers on the main map, which has been surprising given the role rivers have usually played in human history.

I'm very curious for why we haven't heard about the Silkiah canal before, such as in terms of a Silkiah canal limit on ship size among other things, and how it was built instead of the much shorter Gulf of Jahras canal.

Is there an unknown mountain range running north-south through the Northwatch province that made that route too expensive?
I thought it would have been one of the first things Shane-Wei would have built while terraforming, to speed commerce, which would push innovation, which was what she wanted.

Does Emerald have canals connecting its northern lakes with each other and the sea's, besides linking eventually with a southern river network to "stitch the country together"?

Does Chisholm have any continent spanning canals (or something near or close to it), or some combination of canals, rivers and roads etc that permit persons and cargo to cross the continent than poor roads all the way?

Does Zebediah have any canals?

There hasn't been any textev of Corisande having canals, is that the case?

What canals does Charis have?
The bulk of the island continent seem potentially far away from Tellesberg in time and culture.
Are any canals in prospect to link Margaret's land with Charis proper?
Is there a canal linking the Charis west coast to Howell bay or Tellesberg?

Is there a canal connecting Tranjyr in Tarot with its South or eastern coast, to speed commerce from Charis, perhaps by joining a couple of rivers with the lake and an aqueduct topping the connecting canals off?

Most rivers aren't navigable beyond a hundred miles upstream, so the 904 mile steaming radius may be less for going up river than covering a considerable part of the coast; so a relative handful might patrol or control a continent's navigable rivers.

The ironclad's crew may not man all the guns at once unless the hydraulic recoil systems cut the gun crew size more than I've figured, but how many rivers are wide enough for the ironclad to turn and aim its broadsides a hundred miles upstream?

Does Charis need armored or protected cruisers right now when the Go4 is so far behind technologically?

I don't think so, although some experimental types are or will be under construction.

Anyone care to add more questions?

L


runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:One assumes that the gun boat can operate in Howell Bay. May not be fun during lively weather but that sort of closed conditions would limit how rough the seas get. I suspect that these boats would also work well in similar regions in and around the Gulf of Dohlar.

As for moving it into the gulf of Dohlar, it would be easiest of RFC used the cannal he forgot to mention existed between the Gulf of Jahras and Salthar Bay. As for transporting these specialty vehicles, yes very entertaining. Likely the task will be performed by our beloved Flag Lt., the Duke of Dracos.

Because they are specialty vehicles, they will not be in broader production until after their deep sea cousins are deployed. Those more ambitious cousins are the real stuff of speculation. If one were to assume the boiler design will be standard, expanding the number of boilers would scale the power output for larger ships. So, are we looking at a steel framed, wooden hull, armored ship with hydrolic/pnuematic winches about 400 feet long and displacing 6k-7k tons? Powered with 6-8 boilers and 900 tons of bunkerage with similar endurance as the river gun boat, yet still ship or barque rigged with 3 masts? Named Wahrriohr perhaps? No not that, perhaps simply Victory.

I hope so.





There is no canal from Salthar Bay to the Gulf of Jahras; there's one from Salthar Bay to Silkiah Bay.

There are, in fact, lots more canals than most of you guys have yet realized, I think. Or, put another way, looking at the Church's massive naval ship building and armament programs, how did you think they were moving the tonnages involved after Charis essentially closed the seas to them completely? If you go back and look, you'll see Duchairn lecturing Clyntahn on the advantages of oceanic transport and water transport, yet they still managed to transport the iron to cast thousands of guns, the timber needed to build hundreds of galleons, etc., etc. How did they manage this? Hmmmmm?

The truth is that most (not all) of the mainland realms have very extensive canal systems, some of which have been around since before the Day of Creation, having been dug by Pei Shan-wei and her crews as a way to provide reasonably efficient transportation to a civilization which was to be forever forbidden railroads or steamships. The existence of draft dragons helped a lot in this regard, too, allowing them to be . . . rather more ambitious in their barges (and lock sizes) than was possible with animal traction here on Old Earth.

The reason you haven't seen them before is that "the out islands" were all settled well after the mainland. Charis never really needed them, given the advantages of Howell Bay, and Chisholm and Coirsande are also (effectively) really big islands who, once again, had both far less need of inland water transportation and (until quite recently) population bases too small to provide the immense quantities of labor necessary for large-scale canal building in a pre-dynamite society.

As another aside, the availability/non-availability of canal transportation had a lot to do with who was able to build (and arm) their allotted galleons on schedule, as will become evident when/if you see a map of the actual canal network.

Now, the canal from Salthar Bay to Silkiah isn't really suitable for ovean-going galleons with drafts of well over 20 feet, but you probably could get a few galleys through it. Maybe even, oh, I dunno . . . a few ironclad galleys with heavy, bow-mounted, shell-firing artillery pieces? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

As for building Warrior . . . well, I had something a mite more challenging in mind. [G] Not to say you aren't headed in the right direction, of course . . .

And the name of the first two will be Haarahld VII and Gwyllym Manthyr, just in case anyone in Zion might need a little hint about Charisian attitudes towards the esteemed Grand Inquisitor.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by Alistair   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:41 am

Alistair
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:48 am

where are these places located?

"There is no canal from Salthar Bay to the Gulf of Jahras; there's one from Salthar Bay to Silkiah Bay."
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