HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

Hildum wrote:

n7axw wrote:
They seem to be beheading nobles and hanging priests.

Don

That was shipboard. Lots of rope, and a lot of places to tie it to. Plus, less mess on the decks.

Further, remember the heads on pikes? Not clear what method was used there.

lyonheart wrote:Hi McGuiness,

SNIP
Given interior lines and faster barge traffic, no wonder Cayleb and Merlin etc think they've turned the corner.

L
SNIP

Weird Harold wrote:

Peter2 wrote:The way weapons are developing on Safehold,...

The subject of automatic weapons, and other potential advances in both weapons and other technologies has been covered in detail in several other threads; like this one: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6848

Down Under wrote:

McGuiness wrote
That's what I get for doing the math in my head - a 3 deep line at a yard per man would require a bit more than 5000 rifles per mile,

Hi McGuiness ,

We have not used Imperial measurement down here since the 1970s (40+ years) but I thought there were only 1760 yards in a mile

Down Under

Down Under wrote:

McGuiness wrote
That's what I get for doing the math in my head - a 3 deep line at a yard per man would require a bit more than 5000 rifles per mile,

Hi McGuiness ,

We have not used Imperial measurement down here since the 1970s (40+ years) but I thought there were only 1760 yards in a mile

Down Under

tootall wrote:O.K....
That's a WOW.

and,

I think she likes our hero.

PeterZ wrote:Lyonheart,

Tried posting a response to yours twice and the net ate 'em both. Hopefully a separate post survives.

I believe that CoGA theology believes in salvation through works as well as societal salvation. RFC describes the CoGA as closer to Islam that it is to Christianity. He has also mentioned a focus on works over a personal relationship with God. These are two of the key differences between the two. Also, God's Plan is mentioned repeatedly in text. Many seem to believe this simply means God has shaped our lives with choices that if taken would make our lives better. I believe it means something else. That God wants Safehold either as individuals or as a whole to accomplish certain things to earn salvation. That suggests to me that Safehold's salvation might require the participation of the CoGA. Either the CoGA is required to perform rituals for for individuals or perform tasks for Safehold as a whole to enable salvation.


** Go back to Maikel's sermon in Manchyr; he's rather direct in stating the CoGA has obviously failed in God's charge to teach and protect his children, thus invalidating it as God's church.

No where does he address any such dogma as you've suggested here.

There is no textev in the Holy Writ that the existence of the CoGA is fundamental or crucial to any Safeholdian's salvation; certainly we haven't heard that argument made by the Go4, even in their private thoughts, or vocalized by anyone else, and no evident attempt by the CoC or reformists to counter any such claim by CoGA propagandists.**


The CoC was the product of generations to St. Zherneau. It has succeeded in persuading generations of Charisian clergy that their relationship with God is primary over their relationship with the CoGA hierarchy. Reformists are predisposed to focus on their relationship with God over their relationship with their hierarchy. Reformist clergy see the corruption in their superiors and focus on God. They preach the same message to their congregation.

Temple loyalists did not have that same history. Those priests were corrupt or do believe in the necessity of the CoGA in God's Plan. Anyone who believes that will have issues taking guidance from an heretical church. For those people destroying the continuity of the church built by the archangels will place their salvation and the salvation of their loved ones in jeopardy.


** So the Go4, the vicarate and the Grand Vicar can sin and abuse their power as much as they please forever, as they have for the last few centuries if not since they attempted to destroy the SSK and before, and the CoGA congregations will continue to believe that God still approves of it all, regardless of their corruption etc in his name?

Right.

There is no evidence that the CoGA has ever effectively reformed itself [ie end its corruption], so what hope do the CoGA loyalists have that the systemic corruption and abuse, whoredoms and evil will ever end?

Rather the murder of Saint Everard more than 2 centuries ago demonstrates that the corruption then was too endemic NTM systemic to be overcome by even a Grand Vicar with far more power than the figurehead that's left today.

By your argument it doesn't matter because the vicarate was made by God or at least the archangels and that's all that matters.

That's a remarkably superstitious view of humanity, and very close to Langhorne's, in that he stupidly thought he could impose an unchanging sterile society on humanity.

Humans being humans, I don't think that theoretical premise will last all that much longer.

Indeed that's the central premise of Shan Wei's conspiracy.

The changes Merlin initially saw in Charis would have inevitably spread to the rest of Safehold given time.

Clyntahn's abuses of power, however repressive he might have become without Merlin to hurry the opposition along, would have only accelerated the CoGA's perversions to where an inevitable response would doom the CoGA, and without knowing about the Gbabba, eventually all that remains of humanity.

Given how far the morals and attitudes of American society have changed from personal experience in the last 40 years, it may not take that many generations to change the CoGA population's mind about a lot of things regarding the CoGA and the archangels etc.

The revelations of Seijin Khody's journal will be critical after the war in taking the mask away from the archangels, demonstrating that they were humans, not demi-gods.**


So the defeat of the CoGA and forced reforms by the CoC would make the loyalist clergy and parishioner alike fear for their salvation. If Duchairn can salvage the CoGA's independence, he can try to manage the necessary reform and reconcile as much as he can with the CoC and reformists. That's the crux isn't it? Can Duchairn take Clyntahn out?


** No, the point is that while he can certainly try to make reforms it won't matter, because the CoGA is too corrupt to permit any reforms, even if they're for its own good.

There is no evidence that he wants to reconcile the CoC and reformists.

The reaction of the rest of the CoGA to any attempts would doom him and any of his 'reforms'.

Furthermore, whether Rhobair succeeds in removing Clyntahn from power or not, the CoGA is doomed because as Maikel told Irys, it refuses to give up the power it has to control men's lives, and that cannot last, regardless of whether the CoC and reformists survive, although I think we all agree they will.

Again the centrality of the CoGA to everyone's salvation is just your rather weak premise, which while interesting, is unsupported by any textev or data dump by RFC.

There probably are many TL's who believe the CoGA is indeed crucial to their salvation, regardless whether the Holy Writ explicitly states it or not, but from our own experience, a lot of people believe a great many things are in the bible when they're not.

When I was in Iraq, one way of getting detainees to think for themselves was to teach them to read and give them their own copy of the Koran, so they could see for themselves many things they were told weren't in the Koran at all.

By your theory, no internal reform is possible because the people believe too strongly that whatever the CoGA does is God's will.

That is ultimately doomed to fail, as our heroes know.

If Saint Everard as Grand Vicar couldn't make any reforms with more real religious authority than Duchairn will ever have, how does he stand a chance?

Again regardless of however sensible the reforms Rhobair may be in favor of [which we don't know]; 99% of the rest of the vicarate, the CoGA clergy, the family clans running the KotTL, the vested interests in the CoGA countries are all opposed and will claim that the CoGA was coerced into them, regardless of the facts, so the difference between the alliance compelling reforms and Duchairn attempting any is from their point of view null and nothing.

No possibility of real internal reform implies external reform is the only solution; QED the CoC and the rest of the reformists are actually God's will, required to do what the CoGA cannot, as Maikel suggested to Klairmant.**


I can of course be totally wrong about my assumptions. Based on RFC's posts and text, I don't believe I am. If the CoGA preaches salvation through works and that it, the CoGA, is necessary to secure Safehold's salvation, persuading loyalists otherwise would be very difficult to do within 2 generations.


** Again I see no textev for anything at all related to your premise.

Again, given the changes in American attitudes and beliefs over the last 40 years, expecting the CoGA faithful's to remain static for a couple generations given the current and anticipated future turmoil, to say nothing of the various revelations seems more difficult to believe.**


On the flip side Cayleb et al were ready to take out the CoGA before Father Paityr reveal his Key and the news about the Return. They would have had to defeat the CoGA armies and then outlast the lingering belief structure. Out last and slowly shift attitudes much as St. Zherneau did for Charis. This is a task for generations.


** I have always said that.**


Once they knew about the Key and Return, they realized there might be other triggers to bring about an early Return or activate the OBS. No one knows what the Key does. Father Paityr only knows that it can only be used once and only if the Temple is in grave peril. Activating the Key entails risk. Since there is time to learn more about all of those systems before the Return and they now have Nynian's sisters to spy for them, waiting to trigger the Key while researching what it might actually do in the Temple becomes the safest course. This will be true even if the Allies take Zion within the year.


** Given the action Nynian expects to trigger in Zion, it might actually happen faster than you figure.**


Since Cayleb et al cannot take the chance of getting Paityr in that room right away, defeating the CoGA militarily becomes less a priority. It would be better to defeat the CoGA and take Zion, but would that enable automatic counter measures the Allies aren't yet able to deal with? Barring more certainty than the Allies currently posses, using the Key is like playing Russian roulette with an undetermined number of rounds in the revolver.


** Given we're expecting the plot to progress, some way of seizing control of the OBS in HFQ by taking Zion seems likely to me.

Nahrmahn may be working on possible counters even as we wait for further snippets.

I've previously posited the possibility that the OBS has been locked out of ever attacking Safehold again, so that all the worry was for naught, albeit was by accident or some unknown actor, but the attack on the SSK strikes that theory down like a KEW unless it happened after that.**


The safe bet would be to agree to a cease fire request from Duchairn (assuming he lives after taking Clyntahn out), negotiate access to the Temple, negotiate terms that will leave the Inquisition compliant with the Writ's demands but in every other way defanged and have trials for War crimes. Because of the jihad, there might be no crimes against allied soldiers. However, the concentration camps were constructed not for enemy combatants but for the population. I sincerely doubt that the Inquisition has sufficient proof of crimes/heresies of all the camps' inhabitants.


** Oh really?

That's such wonderful news. Now I feel so much better.

Not.

There are so many assumptions predicated upon rather ridiculous and exceedingly thin premises that they make the mind boggle.

Besides Rhobair's assumed survival, how can he offer to negotiate or enforce his will on those who will overthrow him if he tries a fraction of what you propose?

The rest of the vicarate and CoGA won't accept giving the CoC access to the temple, NTM how will Rhobair assure the CoC and reformist pilgrims safety if they did; unless the alliance has reached Zion and the temple, ie already assured their own access, so the negotiating is either a false facade, a ploy to suggest the CoGA retains some 'face' or pretense its still in control of the situation, when all will know it obviously isn't.

Supporting and promoting lies like those are hardly Godly practices, now are they?

If the inquisition hasn't been in compliance with the Holy Writ for the last three plus centuries, assuming it was before, and its still okay with the CoGA faithful, why should they accept any reduction in their power now?

Exactly how will that 'defanging' be enforced?

Seriously?

Remember how the SS hid and protected itself after WW2.

From the textev hints the inquisition is already larger than the temple guard and better armed, at least around Zion and the temple.

Given how critical the inquisition has been in shoring up the CoGA country regimes, you expect them to stop and surrender them up rather than shield and support them?

Even if it wanted to and could pursue the inquisition to the ends of Safehold, which it most certainly couldn't, the alliance military couldn't do it; its a process lasting decades, especially when its primarily an intelligence war that requires considerable support from the local people.

The idea the inquisition will permit itself to tamely surrender its power, regardless of whether Clyntahn is alive or not, is absolutely absurd.

The idea the inquisition will meekly submit to war crime trials without any opposition even if just for atrocities against civilians when death sentences are the only inevitable result is just silly.

So none of your above paragraph will happen because its too stupid for anyone to accept.**


If the Allies get significant changes that leaves the Inquisition defanged, the rest of the CoGA reformed to whatever extent is allowable by the Writ and access to Zion, they can begin researching the information necessary to use the Key. I really don't know what that looks like as I don't know what the Writ requires of the CoGA. If the Allies demand changes beyond what the Writ allows, that's proof that they serve the Dark. Walking that line of reforming the CoGA as much as possible and yet not appearing as if the CoC wishes to undermine God's Will will be a difficult things to manage.


** If, if, if; what are the odds that any of the above is going to happen?

Since the CoGA has been corrupt NTM evil since the strike on Alexandria, what will it accept as tolerable reform?

Again, what are the 'significant changes' in the inquisition that it will accept without rebelling or assassinating Rhobair?

Right.

Given that so much of the CoGA is beyond any control of Rhobair's, even if he succeeds in taking control of the Temple and Zion, what reforms will the respective powers that be in Harchong and the rest of the CoGA nations on Haven and Howard accept?

Maikel already made the CoC's case back in Manchyr, which is the extent of what RFC has told us of the Holy Writ's requirement of the CoGA, the CoGA has obviously failed.

Since I've pointed out several times that the CoC and reformists can use the Holy Writ to argue they are more obedient to it than the Go4 and vicarate etc are, your concern about them being accused of serving the dark is technically moot.

However, regardless whether the alliance reforms remain within what the Holy Writ permits, do you seriously think all the opposition won't claim and accuse the CoC that they did?**


I may be wrong in this, but I don't believe I am. We shall see in a few short months.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

snip

** Go back to Maikel's sermon in Manchyr; he's rather direct in stating the CoGA has obviously failed in God's charge to teach and protect his children, thus invalidating it as God's church.

No where does he address any such dogma as you've suggested here.

There is no textev in the Holy Writ that the existence of the CoGA is fundamental or crucial to any Safeholdian's salvation; certainly we haven't heard that argument made by the Go4, even in their private thoughts, or vocalized by anyone else, and no evident attempt by the CoC or reformists to counter any such claim by CoGA propagandists.**

snip
L