HFQ Offical Snippet #4

Welcome to the insanity. Hopefully soon we will be able to post . And start a new round of speculation based on it.

Poker

ashie wrote:HI, I am so happy to finally join this club . Its only taken 4 books length .

so so happy

Ash

Hi Drak,

It's very interesting speculation, but given Bedard was a woman among others, I doubt it was in the original Holy Writ.

We don't have any textev examples of early women maintaining their economic independence outside of convents, ie the church etc, which may have been one of the things that Shan-wei was ticked off about.

I suspect feudalism took root during the war of the fallen, despite the Adams and Eves still being alive, if so the fact the surviving archangels dud nothing to stop or reverse it is rather telling in my opinion.

L

DrakBibliophile wrote:True but would they care even if they knew that "male dominated societies" would be the rule?

They were fanatics about "protecting Mankind from the Gbaba by keeping Mankind low-tech".

They may have seen "male dominated societies" as an acceptable price to pay for keeping Mankind low-tech.

Mind you, I wonder how the fact that the Devil figure on Safehold was female influenced the Church and society especially the Church.

It's possible that the original setup of the Church allowed for higher ranking female members of the Clergy but after the last Archangels died, the Church decided that because the "Greatest Of The Fallen" was female, then females should not reach be allowed in the higher ranks of the Clergy.

PeterZ wrote:It was inferred that Langhorne and Bedard were not very well versed in history. I suspect neither were the well versed in economics. If their primary areas of expertise were politics, psychology and management, they might well not realize how inevitably patriarchy would from their plan.

*quote="eldrwyrm"*The implication of the first book is that Safehold was originally established as an egalitarian, literate society. Because power seeks it's own, and because control is a necessary component of power, divisions in society are contrasted more sharply as those in power highlight those differences to create class warfare. The needs of a pre-industrial, agrarian society presented obvious divisions in labor that promoted a patriarchal society. As literacy rates drop, women become "less useful" than men. This accelerates the move toward partiarchy. Someone then realizes that not only are men "superior" to women, but that some men are superior to others. This leads to greater class division, which leads to indentured servitude which leads to the slavery/serfdom practiced in Harchong.

Surely Bedard realized that this would be the logical conclusion of their plans, but it was unavoidable without significant DNA tampering or industrialization.

*quote*

lyonheart wrote:Hi Drak,

It's very interesting speculation, but given Bedard was a woman among others, I doubt it was in the original Holy Writ.

We don't have any textev examples of early women maintaining their economic independence outside of convents, ie the church etc, which may have been one of the things that Shan-wei was ticked off about.

I suspect feudalism took root during the war of the fallen, despite the Adams and Eves still being alive, if so the fact the surviving archangels dud nothing to stop or reverse it is rather telling in my opinion.

L

If anything, I get the impression that certain Archangels PROMOTED feudalism. The claim that certain Mainland families had their ancestors made nobles by Archangels could very well be true.

And meanwhile in Siddarmark, THEIR patron Archangel may have been more interested in establishing a Republic and providing the best government for the people under his authority rather than playing God and lording it over the peasants.

evilauthor wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Drak,

It's very interesting speculation, but given Bedard was a woman among others, I doubt it was in the original Holy Writ.

We don't have any textev examples of early women maintaining their economic independence outside of convents, ie the church etc, which may have been one of the things that Shan-wei was ticked off about.

I suspect feudalism took root during the war of the fallen, despite the Adams and Eves still being alive, if so the fact the surviving archangels dud nothing to stop or reverse it is rather telling in my opinion.

L

If anything, I get the impression that certain Archangels PROMOTED feudalism. The claim that certain Mainland families had their ancestors made nobles by Archangels could very well be true.

And meanwhile in Siddarmark, THEIR patron Archangel may have been more interested in establishing a Republic and providing the best government for the people under his authority rather than playing God and lording it over the peasants.

Which in any event should lead us to a Circle based in Siddermark. It could be the SSK but there will (I surmise) be a point in the War against the Go4 when they are losing or lost and at the point that becomes obvious, Some of the Circles will bring their histories to light.

Reformation will bring out all the Circles and expose the Writ and Testimonies for what they have been. If the Rakuri can be deactivated - Technology can be shown as a human tool for the betterment of society, leading to other debates.

Agree that it wasn't in the Writ (earlier or later).

IMO as long as nothing in the Writ expressly stated that women can rise to the highest levels of the Safehold Church, the Safehold Church may have changed the rules (not expressed in the Writ) to forbid women from rising to the higher levels of the clergy.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Drak,

It's very interesting speculation, but given Bedard was a woman among others, I doubt it was in the original Holy Writ.

We don't have any textev examples of early women maintaining their economic independence outside of convents, ie the church etc, which may have been one of the things that Shan-wei was ticked off about.

I suspect feudalism took root during the war of the fallen, despite the Adams and Eves still being alive, if so the fact the surviving archangels dud nothing to stop or reverse it is rather telling in my opinion.

L

DrakBibliophile wrote:True but would they care even if they knew that "male dominated societies" would be the rule?

They were fanatics about "protecting Mankind from the Gbaba by keeping Mankind low-tech".

They may have seen "male dominated societies" as an acceptable price to pay for keeping Mankind low-tech.

Mind you, I wonder how the fact that the Devil figure on Safehold was female influenced the Church and society especially the Church.

It's possible that the original setup of the Church allowed for higher ranking female members of the Clergy but after the last Archangels died, the Church decided that because the "Greatest Of The Fallen" was female, then females should not reach be allowed in the higher ranks of the Clergy.

All,
Just putting in my two cents.

In our own history, the harder life is to maintain, the fewer rights accrue to workers - and to women. When more hands are needed to feed people, more women are 'pressed' into duty as mothers. Fewer women in professional fields means fewer women leaders.

It goes in a spiral from there. Without the restriction on marriage, the women in the early COGA likely had to take time off to be mothers - and despite evidence of nepotism by men all over the place, women are far more likely to be suspected of favoring their children. So the COGA would (bureaucratically) start limiting women's access to the pulpit and the Orange.

Remember it took two world wars and a great deal of political capital to let women vote in the US; there still isn't universal sufferage worldwide RIGHT NOW. In an 'instant' world, especially one where the founders 'don't know a lot about history', they are likely to overlook the key factors to ensure equal rights.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people talking about 'equal rights' today without truly understanding the 'equal responsibility' that comes with it. If you don't take both, you're going to give them both up, too.

Pushing Feudalism was likely done to keep the nation-states dependent on the COGA for communication and to 'confirm' the leadership changeovers. A strict hierarchy is very difficult to maintain in a democracy; the theocratic reality of the COGA means they want people looking to a single power for guidance, not a bevy of politicians.

Just my two cents.
Dave

Odd bit of history, interpretation of the early history of the christian church suggests that women as priests was fairly common when christianity was not a public religion - think of home churches. This as the church became a public institution, women as priests were forbidden. I'll leave it to you to put your own political/economic interpretation.

=2014/09/07=

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS !!

I get as much pleasure reading here a I do reading the books !!

R
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ashie wrote:HI, I am so happy to finally join this club . Its only taken 4 books length .

so so happy

Ash

chickladoria wrote:Odd bit of history, interpretation of the early history of the christian church suggests that women as priests was fairly common when christianity was not a public religion - think of home churches. This as the church became a public institution, women as priests were forbidden. I'll leave it to you to put your own political/economic interpretation.

There were at least some female leaders in the history of the primitive church. I am not sure we can establish that there were woman priests. The thing is, society was heavily patriarchal at that time and as the church institutionalized, it followed the pattern of the dominate culture.

Jesus was always very warmly open and accepting of women. It is unfortunate that we have nothing from him that ruled on the issue. But Jesus wasn't into institutions. That happened later to preserve and spread the message of his person and teachings. Paul? There is biblical material in Paul that can be quoted either way. After Paul, it starts getting very patriarchal, husband to be the head of the wife and so on.

Don

Admiral PeterZ,

Thank you for the warm welcome. I shall look forward to posts from this forum with pleasure.


Ash