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HFQ Official Snippet #9

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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:52 am

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Hello RFC!

Thanks for another history lesson!

Swarm type tactics were used by the Charisian privateers back in BSRA, so its about time the Go4 commerce raisers pick up on the concept.

While pirate fleets could and did overwhelm convoy escorts in our history, Doenitz never managed it in WWII.

From what you've posted the chances of a successful repeat are poor to pitiful, if not outright disastrous.

Given no mention of the steam and sail original KH VII's composite hulls being finished as freighters or colliers etc, I presume they were scrapped and thus unavailable.

Japan's solution to the 'impossible' job of blockading China's coast was the same as the US's in the civil war, to simply occupy all the ports with RR leading inland, something more difficult and costly for the ICN given the potential number of creeks and rivers where schooners could be built.

Once enough Siddarmarkians have rifles etc, it could be done; perhaps in a year or so.

L


runsforcelery wrote:
Aethor wrote:Indeed, now when I think about it, it would have been enough for ICN to post a couple squadrons of warships to plug the southern end of the Tarot Channel, and the whole route after that would have been safe.

Am I right? No need to even escort ships, just stop privateers from entering from that side, use the Tarot Channel as a chokepoint.
Then you can have a thousand convoys on the Tellesberg - Siddar City route.

A Desnairian raiding force would have to go past that ICN task force undetected, find a convoy, defeat the escorts, and then return with the prizes, again through the Tarot Channel choke point, undetected.

Considering that Desnairians don't have naval traditions and experience like Charisians, how likely is that?

Or did they come around the globe?
All the way along the south end of Howard, through the Great Western Ocean, then somewhere in between Charis and Chisholm, Zebediah and Chisholm, Emerald and Chisholm, and to the Anvil - then with prizes all the way back?
Without being intercepted by ICN either on the way in or on the way out?

EDIT: Ok, there is still the Tranjyr passage.
But a Desnairian raider task force going intentionally through it?
And the same logic applies - it would take ICN far less ships to block that and the Tarot Channel, than to arrange escorts for every convoy.

And in this way they could have a serious blocking force (indeed, were they not blocking Tarot for something like a couple years? I believe vicar Zhaspar had some... colorful words to describe it) in place, larger than any single convoy escort could be, and likely sufficient to deal with a raider task force.



Okay, the Tarot Channel is 300-plus miles wide at the narrowest point. Assume a visual horizon of 20 miles. That means you'd need fifteen ships abreast to cover its width, assuming they could keep perfect station on one another, it never got dark, and there was never any fog or rain. Oh, and you'd have to have multiple lines of pickets to pick up anything that got past the first one. And your pickets would have to be fast enough to catch each individual raider they intercepted without making holes in the picket line other raider might sneak through. And ---

Start to get the picture here? ;)

The truth is that blockade as a strategy usually uses up more ships than convoy escort does and proves less effective at eliminating raiders, to boot. The beauty of convoy is that the convoys act as bait. They attract the raiders to the warships witho9ut the warships blundering about the vast wastelands of the ocean looking for them. Moreover, a convoy of 100 ships offers about 1% the target offered by 100 ships sailing individually. A given raider will have basically one chance to spot each ship --- or convoy --- passing through its area of operations. That means it has 100 chances to spot the ships sailing solo but only 1 chance to spot the convoy. And if it does spot the convoy, the escort's strength is concentrated in a way that should prevent serious damage and provide an excellent chance of whittling down the raiders unless the bad guys luck out and swarm a single convoy. And, in many ways, even taking heavy damage to the occasional convoy favors the defenders, assuming that it does require the bad guys to mass their forces. Packing enough punch to take out a typical convoy's escorts into a single raiding squadron hugely reduces the amount of water which could be covered by the same number of raiders sailing individually lookin for the unescorted ships.


Second, the convoy sailed from Tellesberg (well, Ithmyn), then to Emerald, where it picked up certain portions of its cargo which are being manufactured around Eraystor Bay (you may or may not find out what those portions were in the fullness of time) and linked up with troop ships coming from Chisholm. The Chisholm contingent joined the convoy and the ships which had escorted the troop ships as far as Emerald picked up a gaggle of ships headed to Chisholm and escorted them back the way they'd come.

From Eraystor to Siddar City is roughly 7,000 miles; from Geyra in Desnair to Siddar City is only 7,100 miles by way of the Tarot Channel. Ergo, it's entirely possible for commerce-raiders to sail from Desnarian coastal waters, penetrate the Tarot Channel (see my above paragraph) and intercept the convoy. Getting the prizes home (since the prize ships are going to be slower and less maneuverable than the raiders) may be rather more difficult, but it certainly isn't impossible. It would obviously be better for the privateers if they could find some "neutral" port in which to dispose of their prizes, as the Charisians were doing in South Harchong before Jihad was formally declared, but beggars can't be choosers.

One thing folks have to bear in mind is that radar and aerial and satellite reconnaissance has rather spoiled us. These people (aside from the inner circle) have none of those advantages. The only sensor they have is the Mark One Eyeball, and that makes interceptions a lot harder to pull off. That's one of the reasons --- as I mentioned earlier --- the inner circle had no way of predicting that the raiders were going to run into a troop convoy when, in fact, the odds were heavily in favor of they're not running into it.

As far as blockading Tarot is concerned, yes, the ICN did just that. However, the blockade --- deliberately --- leaked like a sieve for smuggling purposes. What they were really doing was blockading Gorjah's naval units, and that's a lot easier to do as long as you know where they're ported and you can find a fairly convenient bad weather base/water source to support your blockaders. If the Tarotisian Navy had ever managed to evade the blockade and get to sea, however, finding it again would have been a nontrivial task. I invite your attention to Nelson's pursuit of Villeneuve prior to Trafalgar. Privateers are a lot harder to blockade. They're smaller, faster, harder to spot, and completely capable of sailing in singletons rather than squadrons and still proving strategically effective.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Highjohn   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:00 am

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lyonheart wrote:...to simply occupy all the ports with RR leading inland....



I sorry I know I'm being dense but "RR"?
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:13 am

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Highjohn wrote:
lyonheart wrote:...to simply occupy all the ports with RR leading inland....



I sorry I know I'm being dense but "RR"?


"RR" = "railroads," I believe. ;)

The equivalent on Safehold would be canals, assuming it was/is workable.


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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by pokermind   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:03 am

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Fellow posters we must remember how much steel railroads require for their tracks before blithely suggesting miles of railroad and that on Safehold steel production is a bottleneck.

Let’s look at a mile of track laid with fifty-five pound to the yard rail, ties two feet on center, and in fact the same rail specified for the first transcontinental railroad in the 1863 Pacific Railroad Act. For a mile of track the rails weigh 86.43 tons in 352 thirty foot rails. Splice bars weigh (352 @ 29 lbs/ pair ÷ 2,000 lbs/ ton =) 5.104 tons. Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 4 x 200lbs ÷ 259 ÷ 2,000 lbs =) 0.544 tons. Spikes weigh (5,632 lbs ÷ 2,000 lbs / ton =) 2.816 tons. Totaling the ironmongery we have 94.894 tons. I used two primary references to get these numbers to crunch. The Handlan-Buck Railroad, Miners, Machinists, and Lumber Mill Supplies catalog of 1918, Handlan-Buck Mfg. Co., Saint Louis, Missouri, pages 325-326, and Marshall Kirkman, Building and Repairing Railways, World Railway Publishing Company, London, © 1907, pages 680-681.

Note that locomotives and railroad cars will require even more. Here is the weight of materials in a steam locomotive John H. White Jr. American Locomotives, an Engineering History 1830-1880, © 1968, Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, Maryland, pages 474 and 476 quotes the following totals for various materials use in an 1865 Hinkley Locomotive Works 4-4-0 with sixty inch drivers and 15 x 24 inch cylinders. Note that the weights are the finished parts not the rough castings or rough bar stock weight. I calculated following totals. The engine has: brass 1,948 lbs., wood 2,718 lbs, wrought iron 29,627 lbs., and cast iron 19,785 lbs. used in 4,904 parts. The tender has: brass 83 lbs., wood 3,118 lbs., wrought iron 8,330 lbs., and cast iron 6,987 lbs. used in 1,366 parts. Total weight engine 54,078 lbs., total weight tender 18,518 lbs, and total weight engine and tender is 72,596 lbs. spread over a total of 6,270 parts. Thus the locomotive and tender contain: brass 2,031 lbs. 1.0155 tons wood 5,836 lbs or 2.918 tons, wrought iron 37,957 lbs or 18.9785 tons, cast iron 67,772 lbs. or 13.386 tons. Substitute steel for wrought iron and you get the idea.

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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Thrandir   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:09 am

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Thanks RFC for the snippet was getting withdrawals ... lol

Love it when you point out such things Pokermind :mrgreen:

pokermind wrote:Fellow posters we must remember how much steel railroads require for their tracks before blithely suggesting miles of railroad and that on Safehold steel production is a bottleneck.

Let’s look at a mile of track laid with fifty-five pound to the yard rail, ties two feet on center, and in fact the same rail specified for the first transcontinental railroad in the 1863 Pacific Railroad Act. For a mile of track the rails weigh 86.43 tons in 352 thirty foot rails. Splice bars weigh (352 @ 29 lbs/ pair ÷ 2,000 lbs/ ton =) 5.104 tons. Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 4 x 200lbs ÷ 259 ÷ 2,000 lbs =) 0.544 tons. Spikes weigh (5,632 lbs ÷ 2,000 lbs / ton =) 2.816 tons. Totaling the ironmongery we have 94.894 tons. I used two primary references to get these numbers to crunch. The Handlan-Buck Railroad, Miners, Machinists, and Lumber Mill Supplies catalog of 1918, Handlan-Buck Mfg. Co., Saint Louis, Missouri, pages 325-326, and Marshall Kirkman, Building and Repairing Railways, World Railway Publishing Company, London, © 1907, pages 680-681.

Note that locomotives and railroad cars will require even more. Here is the weight of materials in a steam locomotive John H. White Jr. American Locomotives, an Engineering History 1830-1880, © 1968, Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, Maryland, pages 474 and 476 quotes the following totals for various materials use in an 1865 Hinkley Locomotive Works 4-4-0 with sixty inch drivers and 15 x 24 inch cylinders. Note that the weights are the finished parts not the rough castings or rough bar stock weight. I calculated following totals. The engine has: brass 1,948 lbs., wood 2,718 lbs, wrought iron 29,627 lbs., and cast iron 19,785 lbs. used in 4,904 parts. The tender has: brass 83 lbs., wood 3,118 lbs., wrought iron 8,330 lbs., and cast iron 6,987 lbs. used in 1,366 parts. Total weight engine 54,078 lbs., total weight tender 18,518 lbs, and total weight engine and tender is 72,596 lbs. spread over a total of 6,270 parts. Thus the locomotive and tender contain: brass 2,031 lbs. 1.0155 tons wood 5,836 lbs or 2.918 tons, wrought iron 37,957 lbs or 18.9785 tons, cast iron 67,772 lbs. or 13.386 tons. Subistitue steel for wrought iron and you get the idea.

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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Joat42   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:07 am

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pokermind wrote:Fellow posters we must remember how much steel railroads require for their tracks before blithely suggesting miles of railroad and that on Safehold steel production is a bottleneck.
...snip...
Poker

I do hope when they build railroads all over Safehold that they use a broad gauge, like Brunels 7.25 ft gauge.

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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by n7axw   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:17 am

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Joat42 wrote:
pokermind wrote:Fellow posters we must remember how much steel railroads require for their tracks before blithely suggesting miles of railroad and that on Safehold steel production is a bottleneck.
...snip...
Poker

I do hope when they build railroads all over Safehold that they use a broad gauge, like Brunels 7.25 ft gauge.


Given the quality of roads on Safehold, especially on the mainland which iirc are quite good, I wonder if we might not see busses and trucks first...

Don
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by jgnfld   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:48 am

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runsforcelery wrote:...I invite your attention to Nelson's pursuit of Villeneuve prior to Trafalgar. Privateers are a lot harder to blockade. They're smaller, faster, harder to spot, and completely capable of sailing in singletons rather than squadrons and still proving strategically effective.


I might suggest to posters a recent examination of commerce raiding published by the Navy War College for some info and ideas. Commerce Raiding: Historical Case Studies, 1755-2009 (Newport Papers Series, Number 40): Naval War College Press, Bruce A. Elleman, S. C. M. Paine which is available for free download at https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/3f9e1de9-f4a4-4119-8ff0-4eb3a256555c%2FNP_40Commerce-Web.pdf .

It contains more information than most would likely wish to know.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:29 pm

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Hi HighJohn,

I'm sorry, I've used RR as an acronym for so long [50+ years] that I thought everyone knew what it was.

Usually I've spelled it out first, but if it was used recently in the news or advertisements [how 'green' a RR is etc] I assume people know what it means.

You notice RFC wasn't warm to the tactic? :D

L


Highjohn wrote:
lyonheart wrote:...to simply occupy all the ports with RR leading inland....



I sorry I know I'm being dense but "RR"?
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by pablopinzone   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:34 pm

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[snip]
Second, the convoy sailed from Tellesberg (well, Ithmyn), then to Emerald, where it picked up certain portions of its cargo which are being manufactured around Eraystor Bay (you may or may not find out what those portions were in the fullness of time)
[/snip]

More surprises to come. It will be toooo long a wait.
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