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ATST Snippet #6 (I think)

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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by n7axw   » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:58 pm

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WeberFan wrote:SNIP

Emphasis mine...

EdThomas wrote:I hate to be a party pooper here but the KHVII's aren't gonna do very well against mines.
The Celeryeater's been nasty enough to put some very smart and creative folk among the badguys. These, and others we haven't heard of yet, smart and creative types have been looking at the clever fuses the good guys have developed. Might one of these SaC folks figure out how to build a contact fuse for a tethered mine?


Methinks more "Smart" and less "Creative" Ed.

IIRC, all of the loyalist "inventions" have been minor extensions of existing Charisian innovations:
- Use of a sling to deliver a grenade.
- Development of rockets (OK, I'll grant that putting a bunch of rockets on a cart WAS kind of creative for them).
- Development of breechloading rifles.
- And others of course...

Try as I might, I can't think of any truly creative thing the loyalists have done for themselves. IMHO they've been SMART in some of their adaptations, but I think that the Inquisition will keep them from getting truly "creative" as I think you mean the term.


The design on the St Klymans is different enough from the Mandrayans to be regarded as a fresh, creative approach to breach loading that is elegant in its simplicity.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by GuillermoSalvaje   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:58 am

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lyonheart has a very good point, but sound-powered phones should be doable within the Safehold technology level [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-powered_telephone]. Coupled with sound isolation headphones & microphones, they should work in a high-noise environment--like on a ship of war during combat. the transducers are simply diaphragms attached to magnetic cores moving in a coil of wire. You need a circuit for each one-way link, but the range is well within the height limitation of a tethered ballon. In addition, the power generated is a few milliwatts and should not be detectable at any appreciable distance--but that could be verified by Merlin or Nimue on Castaway Islands first. It would be a very nice segue into more of those Proscription-breaking technologies!
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:20 pm

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How does anyone explain the energy being transferred from the speaker to the receiver? The energy being sent is electricity and that is proscribed. How will whoever explain the process to bypass the use of electricity?

GuillermoSalvaje wrote:lyonheart has a very good point, but sound-powered phones should be doable within the Safehold technology level [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-powered_telephone]. Coupled with sound isolation headphones & microphones, they should work in a high-noise environment--like on a ship of war during combat. the transducers are simply diaphragms attached to magnetic cores moving in a coil of wire. You need a circuit for each one-way link, but the range is well within the height limitation of a tethered ballon. In addition, the power generated is a few milliwatts and should not be detectable at any appreciable distance--but that could be verified by Merlin or Nimue on Castaway Islands first. It would be a very nice segue into more of those Proscription-breaking technologies!
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Peter2   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:11 pm

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n7axw wrote:[snip]

The design on the St Klymans is different enough from the Mandrayans to be regarded as a fresh, creative approach to breach loading that is elegant in its simplicity.

Don

-


Agreed, but it is still breech loading – a new way of meeting an established need. Mines are a completely new type of weapon, and needs thought which is a step further outside the box than anything the CoGA have demonstrated so far. They might get closer to it if they translated the principle of the Kau-Yungs from land to the water, but I suspect the poor relationship at high level between the Army and the Navy will reduce the probabilities of that happening. In any case, I'm not sure that their metallurgy is up to it. It only needs one tiny leak, and the weapon is dead.
.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:36 pm

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Guys, surprise inventions by the Temple Boy's will be a problem once OWL shuts off the SNARCs and goes for a 6 month retreat in St Zherneau's and not before.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Joat42   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:34 pm

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GuillermoSalvaje wrote:lyonheart has a very good point, but sound-powered phones should be doable within the Safehold technology level [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-powered_telephone]. Coupled with sound isolation headphones & microphones, they should work in a high-noise environment--like on a ship of war during combat. the transducers are simply diaphragms attached to magnetic cores moving in a coil of wire. You need a circuit for each one-way link, but the range is well within the height limitation of a tethered ballon. In addition, the power generated is a few milliwatts and should not be detectable at any appreciable distance--but that could be verified by Merlin or Nimue on Castaway Islands first. It would be a very nice segue into more of those Proscription-breaking technologies!

Anything electrical is a no no, even though we are talking about minuscule electrical charges.

But I'm wondering why not use speaking tubes? They work well, and they are still used today on modern ships because they are essentially foolproof.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:48 pm

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WRT innovation, Screw Galleys.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:20 pm

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GuillermoSalvaje wrote:lyonheart has a very good point, but sound-powered phones should be doable within the Safehold technology level [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-powered_telephone]. Coupled with sound isolation headphones & microphones, they should work in a high-noise environment--like on a ship of war during combat. the transducers are simply diaphragms attached to magnetic cores moving in a coil of wire. You need a circuit for each one-way link, but the range is well within the height limitation of a tethered ballon. In addition, the power generated is a few milliwatts and should not be detectable at any appreciable distance--but that could be verified by Merlin or Nimue on Castaway Islands first. It would be a very nice segue into more of those Proscription-breaking technologies!


While it doesn't use batteries it does use electricity. That's a line he's not going to cross except with federation tech.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by EdThomas   » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:35 am

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RFC has said things aren't all going to go our way this year. Losing a Rottweiller or a KHVII would be one way to accomplish that without losing the mission. Also, I'm uncomfortable thinking of the KHVII's and Rottweillers as being an irresistible force. I think the Dohlarans are going to fight hard to keep the ICN out of Gorath Bay. This is their capital, their country. They won't know they're up against an “irresistible” force until the KHVII's go into the Bay and destroy most, if not all, of the defensive installations. RFC's been consistent in portraying the COGA fighting man as a tough and courageous fighter.
I expect the ICN to be hurt in Gorath Bay. I also expect them to be totally victorious there with major consequences for the Jihad. I think the most likely agent of hurt will be Katyusha rockets. My thoughts on how the Katyushas wil be effective and a possible scenario on how mines might come into play follow. I attach no guesstimate on the probability of the scenario actually coming to be but it was fun to build Lyanehl and Elwoulhd's conversation.
I will cast votes for the St Khylman breechloader and the crank galley gunboats as being creative in case anyone's keeping score

A “creative” mine scenario:
Two Dohlarans, Lyanehl and Elwoulhd, senior artificers working for Lt Zhwaygair, are making replacement ammo for Dreadnought and complaining about Charisian armor. “We can't touch 'em.” Elwoulhd grumbled.
“Aye, but the new shells have got the cursed galleons afraid to come near us,” Lyanehl replied trying to keep his partner's spirits up
Elwoulhd nodded, “I don't know 'bout that but, ya know how a ship heels when she turns, maybe we could get a shot below the armor at their wooden hulls then, during the turn.”
“Aye, but gonna be pretty painful to get that shot,” Lyanehl agreed.
Elwoulhd pauses and looks at the rows shells standing on the floor around them. “Hmmm..., Lyanehl, I think I might have a way to get these beauties into those cursed heretics' hulls.”
Lyanehl looks up, “Ehh?” His mate was looking at the shells but he knew his mind was elsewhere.
“What we do,” Elwoulhd said softly, “is build a wooden framework to hold and float one or two shells and then we rig 'em with one of those fuses they use on the Kau Yungs.”
Lyanehl glances around to make sure none of the Inquisition monitors is in earshot.
Elwoulhd leans closer, “Then..., we anchor the frame to the bottom below the surface so the Shan-wei worshippin' devils won't see 'em. We'll blow some mighty big holes through those copper-plated hulls as they come sailin' in all high'n'mighty.”
Lyanehl sits back, “Elwoulhd, I think you best be gettin' over to talk to Lt Zhwaygair right quick on that one. Maybe you can call 'em “Admiral's Eggbaskets.”
Owl's filters disregard Zhwaygair talking about the new "eggbasket" so Sarmouth gets no warning of the nasty surprise waiting for him.
And even if Sarmouth knows they're there, how's he gonna disable them? He can't get Schooners in without turning them into piles of splinters and the eggbaskets are rigged with rugged contact fuses.

The real threat
Katyushas, which actually exist, may be used in the harbor's defense. They'd be quite simple to use as area defense weapons. Their max range of 4000 yds means much of the area of the approach lanes can be covered. (that's an assumption because the map has no scale. :) )
Put the launchers in place and leave them with only a 2 or 3 person firing crew. Launchers can be concealed and protected by placing them behind batteries, in deep holes with protective covers. Installations behind civilian homes or in the open away from batteries might not even require covers. Levelling the battery will have no long-term effects because rubble from the battery can be quickly removed from the protective covers. The ICN won't have any idea they're there and even if they do, a hole is a pretty tough target to level.

Each launcher's impact zone is marked with a small buoy. The launch crew fires when a ship is at or close to the buoy. They are watching only their buoy so things are kept simple. Extra false decoy buoys can be dropped to make the buoy's function unknown until it's too late.
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Re: ATST Snippet #6 (I think)
Post by n7axw   » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:15 pm

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EdThomas wrote:RFC has said things aren't all going to go our way this year. Losing a Rottweiller or a KHVII would be one way to accomplish that without losing the mission. Also, I'm uncomfortable thinking of the KHVII's and Rottweillers as being an irresistible force. I think the Dohlarans are going to fight hard to keep the ICN out of Gorath Bay. This is their capital, their country. They won't know they're up against an “irresistible” force until the KHVII's go into the Bay and destroy most, if not all, of the defensive installations. RFC's been consistent in portraying the COGA fighting man as a tough and courageous fighter.
I expect the ICN to be hurt in Gorath Bay. I also expect them to be totally victorious there with major consequences for the Jihad. I think the most likely agent of hurt will be Katyusha rockets. My thoughts on how the Katyushas wil be effective and a possible scenario on how mines might come into play follow. I attach no guesstimate on the probability of the scenario actually coming to be but it was fun to build Lyanehl and Elwoulhd's conversation.
I will cast votes for the St Khylman breechloader and the crank galley gunboats as being creative in case anyone's keeping score

A “creative” mine scenario:
Two Dohlarans, Lyanehl and Elwoulhd, senior artificers working for Lt Zhwaygair, are making replacement ammo for Dreadnought and complaining about Charisian armor. “We can't touch 'em.” Elwoulhd grumbled.
“Aye, but the new shells have got the cursed galleons afraid to come near us,” Lyanehl replied trying to keep his partner's spirits up
Elwoulhd nodded, “I don't know 'bout that but, ya know how a ship heels when she turns, maybe we could get a shot below the armor at their wooden hulls then, during the turn.”
“Aye, but gonna be pretty painful to get that shot,” Lyanehl agreed.
Elwoulhd pauses and looks at the rows shells standing on the floor around them. “Hmmm..., Lyanehl, I think I might have a way to get these beauties into those cursed heretics' hulls.”
Lyanehl looks up, “Ehh?” His mate was looking at the shells but he knew his mind was elsewhere.
“What we do,” Elwoulhd said softly, “is build a wooden framework to hold and float one or two shells and then we rig 'em with one of those fuses they use on the Kau Yungs.”
Lyanehl glances around to make sure none of the Inquisition monitors is in earshot.
Elwoulhd leans closer, “Then..., we anchor the frame to the bottom below the surface so the Shan-wei worshippin' devils won't see 'em. We'll blow some mighty big holes through those copper-plated hulls as they come sailin' in all high'n'mighty.”
Lyanehl sits back, “Elwoulhd, I think you best be gettin' over to talk to Lt Zhwaygair right quick on that one. Maybe you can call 'em “Admiral's Eggbaskets.”
Owl's filters disregard Zhwaygair talking about the new "eggbasket" so Sarmouth gets no warning of the nasty surprise waiting for him.
And even if Sarmouth knows they're there, how's he gonna disable them? He can't get Schooners in without turning them into piles of splinters and the eggbaskets are rigged with rugged contact fuses.

The real threat
Katyushas, which actually exist, may be used in the harbor's defense. They'd be quite simple to use as area defense weapons. Their max range of 4000 yds means much of the area of the approach lanes can be covered. (that's an assumption because the map has no scale. :) )
Put the launchers in place and leave them with only a 2 or 3 person firing crew. Launchers can be concealed and protected by placing them behind batteries, in deep holes with protective covers. Installations behind civilian homes or in the open away from batteries might not even require covers. Levelling the battery will have no long-term effects because rubble from the battery can be quickly removed from the protective covers. The ICN won't have any idea they're there and even if they do, a hole is a pretty tough target to level.

Each launcher's impact zone is marked with a small buoy. The launch crew fires when a ship is at or close to the buoy. They are watching only their buoy so things are kept simple. Extra false decoy buoys can be dropped to make the buoy's function unknown until it's too late.


Watch the fanfiction... I don't see Dohlar getting rockets... Those will be used by the Harchongians and the AOG... I am also skeptical of marine mines. But that is a more likely scenario.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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