lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,
Where is the textev that the CoGA has cleansed 'itself numerous times'?
Given the mysterious death of Seijin Khody, it hasn't been cleansed in a very long time, regardless of any public pronouncements, ie any have been more cosmetic than effective.
We have no indication of any such cleansing in the last 200 years or so since St Everard was murdered, which is rather long to wait hoping something happens for the better .
Too literal, Lyonheart. Those changes you metioned represent adjustments. Not all were good, but they did maintain a continuity within the Church. No textev, butit is safe to assume there were other similar changes and shifts.
lyonheart wrote:Given that the circle waited 20 years without there being a cleansing implies they're so rare they would be signally recognised.
Once the reputations of the vicars Nynian has had assassinated become public thanks to OWL, that Clyntahn's supporters have been protected by the inquisition to continue their criminal acts as long as they supported him, how much lower can the vicarate's reputation fall?
Since losing the jihad obviously means the CoGA is no longer being blessed by God for some reason [what did they do to be so punished?], perhaps those surprised might consider that the CoC and reformists are right after all.
Given that the Holy Writ likely teaches that the victory over the fallen was inevitable, the alliance victory proves God is on their side.
Especially when the CoGA members experience the results of the alliance winning which are largely positive.
Changes in the internal dynamics of the Church happen consistently. Did the Group of 4 spring from the ground one fine morning? No, that core structure shifted from something like the lieutenants of the Grand Vicar to the actual powers behind the throne. The same can be said about the Inquisition. It took time to shift from one order of several responsible for fighting heresy to the judge, jury and executioner with respect to addressing heresy.
The CoGA has changed over time. I don't believe I need textev to believe the CoGA is still changing and has been until OAR.
lyonheart wrote:What evidence is there that Rhobair wants, let alone sees any chance of 'healing' the CoGA?
Duchairn's renewal of faith is a personal matter, totally independent of what was happening in the CoGA; there is no indication he's wanted, desired, mentioned or tried to reform anything about the CoGA, nor has his example generated much interest by his colleagues in following his example.
That alone indicates how far from salvage the vicarate is.
Being a realist, knowing all of the above, hoping let alone expecting to heal the schism is rather remote in Rhobair's thinking or planning in my opinion.
I believe that Rhobair wants a unified CoGA. If he thinks the jihad can force the recalitrants back into the fold, he would sadly pursue the jihad until he achieves victory.
I also believe that he wants to reform the CoGA. I don't believe he can accomplish this without another bloody purge. This time of the Inquisition. I believe he recognizes this.
His attitudes about reform were sufficient for Hauwyrd Wylsyn to approach him with that letter. This was almost the last gasp of the Zion Circle. Samyl Wylsyn the principle figure of the Zion Circle was not totally against the idea of a CoC. He recognized that the Church of Charis and the soon to be Empire would not submit to the CoGA hierarchy again. He could accept that. This is one of the same Wylsyns that believed they were descended from the archangels and tasked with protecting the CoGA. They have been doing that since before Schuler died.
Samyl Wylsyn was almost ready to invite Rhobair into the circle. Would he have done that had not believed Rhobair was not totally averse to reform? If Wylsyn could accept a separate CoC albeit with difficulty, might Rhobair also be willing to accept a separate CoC? No textev, but certainly a data point to consider in projecting decisions for Rhobair.
lyonheart wrote:What are the terms you think the alliance must accept?
What peace can Rhobair promise will persist beyond him when any hints of negotiation or admission of guilt will immediately trigger an internal civil war in the CoGA?
After more than 20 years of running the inquisition, who's left that isn't a Clyntahn crony?
10%? 5%? 2%
You seriously think the inquisition is going to accept its destruction quietly?
Even if Rhobair's peace overtures are truly honest, what chance are they in any way practical or worthwhile in pursuing?
There may well be more that you credit here. Bishop Maik in Dohlar doesn't seem to be cut from the same Clyntahn cloth. He subtly suggested that Thirsk take care of his own before doing anything rash. Had Maik been a Clyntahnista, Thirsk would have died for displaying enough for Maik to recognize as unease with the Inquisition's policies.
Even so, as I said above the Inquisiton needs to be purged quickly and thoroughly for Rhobair to have a chance at doing anything. Purging them from Zion is the first step.
lyonheart wrote:How can a disarmed, impoverished church enforce any of its peace promises, even if it were willing to try?
Ignoring such petty peace overtures, what I can only see as vapor; the EoC will actually be quite properly seen as being prudent and wise in doing so, not giving up it's costly yet worthy prize of victory for 'a mess of pottage' of such pathetic promises.
Since the CoGA has pledged to destroy the EoC, why can't it destroy the CoGA in return, in simple reciprocity as Admiral Yairley pointed out in HFaF, since an eye for an eye is evidently in the Holy Writ?
An eye for an eye is not a call for vengeance, Lyonheart. It is call for limiting vengeance to only an eye for an eye and not more than that. An eye for an eye is a call for justice.
Because Clyntahn was unjust, does justice demand the CoC and the EoC destroy the CoGA? Is that justice from the average Safeholdian's POV? Nynian can attest that not all the Vicarate were like Clyntahn. The most outspoken opponents of Clyntahn are dead. There are still those that may well oppose Clyntahn's and his minions if given the opportunity. An opportunity like Clyntahn dead and his minions purged out of Zion.
With the key driver of the jihad dead and the remaining hierarch offering to negotiate a peace, is it justice as seen by Safeholdians to continue to fight and seek the destruction of God's Church? God has removed the primary threat to the CoC and EoC with Clyntahn's death. Why fight further if the CoC's grievance's can be addressed without more bloodshed?
I don't believe this is best for the CoC. I do believe that most Safehodians would consider continuing the war under those conditions unjust.
lyonheart wrote:How is naturally fighting for their survival somehow seen as evil?
Since their war is aimed at the Go4, not the vast membership of the CoGA spread across the continents, the EoC has never threatened to destroy the bulk of the CoGA membership [unlike the CoGA], ie the church in general or their beliefs, and has plainly made that point repeatedly even in private conversations, as well as sermons and public pronouncements, so twisting their struggle into an obvious evil seems too much of a stretch.
Fighting for one's life is not evil. Continuing to fight when the threat to one's life is obviously removed may be evil. An eye but no more than an eye for an eye, heh?
lyonheart wrote:Exactly when or how did the EoC state it only wanted to reform the CoGA?
Since even the TL's in Tellesberg know the CoGA has promised only annihilation to all of Charis etc regardless of whether they are fervent TL's, and all saw that promise being fulfilled in Siddarmark especially by our ex TL's now anti-CoGA soldiers, I doubt many would be upset if the alliance announced it was ensuring such atrocities would never happen to its citizens again.
The alliance menu of options is far greater than Duchairn's, and his is far more limited than you've suggested.
L
Sorry, Lyonheart, but I don't believe you credit sufficiently the reverence for the CoGA that exists in the hearts of most Safeholdians. To believe that the CoGA is beyond redemption is to believe that God gave mankind an imperfect gift. It would be far easier for the laity to believe that the men of the CoGA failed their duty. Yet Duchairn provides the counter example that although all men can fail, some might be redeemed through God's Grace and Love.
Cayleb and Sharley might persuade many within the Empire if not most that the CoC will remain separate from the CoGA to act as a counter balance should other men in the future take the CoGA into another unjust jihad. I doubt they can persuade more than a small minority that the CoGA must be destroyed. Its not that they had to state they did not want to destroy the CoGA only reform it, there is simply no appetite in their Empire to destroy the CoGA if it can be avoided.
The God that breathed life into their bodies and gave the Adams the knowledge to begin life on Safehold gave mankind the Church. Destroying that Gift is tantamount to turning away from God. Deal with the men responsible for the atrocities just as the ICA has done to Inquisitors in the fighting. Reform the CoGA back to where the archangels' original structure to make it more difficult for other men to abuse the power granted the CoGA. All this can be supported by most Safeholdians. Destroying the CoGA when the hierarchy has conceded their errors would be going too far.
This isn't my view. It is the view I believe exists on Safehold given the way Safehold was founded. This view will lead the CoC and EoC to accept an offer to negotiate with the CoGA if Clyntahn and the Inquisition have been neutralized to a large extent. Their demands might lead to a resumption of hostilities or might lead to acceptable reform. That is to be seen.