HFQ Official Snippet #1

tonyz wrote:What if she's thinking "he came direct from heaven" instead of having deduced the full truth?

That's another thing! It's been mentioned in almost every book the dangers of what would happen if the Inner Circle revealed the Truth to someone who reacts "badly" to it. It's a Checkov's Gun that's been sitting on the wall for almost the entire series, but so far Merlin and the Charisians have come up lucky every time.

So what if the one person who has the much feared "bad reaction" is the one person they can least afford to lose and the hardest to make "disappear"?

Especially since it was mentioned that if Nahrman had a bad reaction, he could have betrayed them to the Church (and likely sacrificed himself in the process). And from what we've seen, Aivah is better at the espionage game than Nahrman.

Wouldn't that be worth a few drama points?

Think it's time to fire that particular gun?

runsforcelery wrote:
Who says they've been conducting "active operations" for a huge amount of time? And who says they were organized or trained by "newbies"? I certainly haven't said anything to that effect. Can you point me at any place in textev where I have?

I would point out that there are organization and then there are organizations, and that you are making certain assumptions about any putative organization to which Aivah may or may not belong. Inclluding the assumption that just because they have nmounted no known operations against the Inqusition they must have "newbies" in command. Frankly, I think to some extent that this suggests certain prejudices (in the sense of pre-judgments) in your basic model.

Suppose, for a moment, that there was a secret organization which had been hidden for a couple of hundred years (or more), during which it had erected a defense in depth against revealing its presence while very quietly and clandestinely collecting information on a known intelligence agency. And suppose, for just a moment, that said secret organization possessed the means to insert its own personnel into the known intelligence agency. And suppose, for just a moment, that those infiltrated agents spent a hundred years or so learning the techniques of the known intelligence services without ever carrying out an overt operation against the known intelligence agency. And suppose that those folks who learned those techniques were available to teach them to your "newbies," while simultaneously passing along the institutional experience of their enemy learned while actively in the service of and running operation for that enemy.

Now, I am not saying which, or how much, if any, of the above suppositions are relevant to Safehold, but it does rather suggest how at least some of your concerns could be answered, does it not?

I acknowledged earlier that hiding within inquisition was a possibility if not active and it is indeed a way to learn the inquisition way of trade. Tradesets are a bit different (Inquisition do arrests before murders) but not that much, and other activities, like smuggling, could provide what is missing.

Still the duration problem remains, the "org" is quite a bit too competent to not preexist our favorite Madam life, but then if it is centuries old, why was it never active ?
And why turning the switch now ? And no turncoats in centuries ?
A passive "org" just collating info while hiding also cannot exist without someone exploiting the collated stuff, because otherwise it is goalless.

Lastly, there is the size question. A handfull of person can go on a successfull conspiracy a long time, but the reach and extent of Aivah ops suggest it is a rather large one.

Now, you are pretty good to misleading us first and giving pallatable explanations later down the road. Almost sure this is more of that case. My suspension of disbelief was hitted pretty hard though, but it is not the first time in Safehold books and it was always given a way to recover on.

alj_sf wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:...snip...

I acknowledged earlier that hiding within inquisition was a possibility if not active and it is indeed a way to learn the inquisition way of trade. Tradesets are a bit different (Inquisition do arrests before murders) but not that much, and other activities, like smuggling, could provide what is missing.

Still the duration problem remains, the "org" is quite a bit too competent to not preexist our favorite Madam life, but then if it is centuries old, why was it never active ?

Maybe because the organization was created for a specific purpose or for a specific set of circumstances to occur. Maybe the organization was started by an order to keep tabs on the inquisition. There are several possibilities why the organization has been passive for so long.

alj_sf wrote:And why turning the switch now ? And no turncoats in centuries ?

Well, Clynthan had his little purge which may well have changed the circumstances. And asking why there are no turncoat may be so simple as they have been very careful who to indict into their organization, just look at the Brethren of St. Zherneau; they managed just fine.

alj_sf wrote:A passive "org" just collating info while hiding also cannot exist without someone exploiting the collated stuff, because otherwise it is goalless.

No, if the goal is to go active when certain events transpire it's not goalless.

alj_sf wrote:Lastly, there is the size question. A handful of persons can go on a successful conspiracy a long time, but the reach and extent of Aivah ops suggest it is a rather large one.

We know that Aivah's organization is actually several different ones, and each one is small enough that if it's compromised it can be cut off rather easily without impeding the overall effort.

alj_sf wrote:Now, you are pretty good to misleading us first and giving palatable explanations later down the road. Almost sure this is more of that case. My suspension of disbelief was hit pretty hard though, but it is not the first time in Safehold books and it was always given a way to recover on.

Well, we know that RFC tend to use red herrings that on the surface doesn't look very obvious so if something strikes you as very odd because you feel it doesn't really fit into the story it's most certainly a red herring or just that you missed an obscure reference.

I acknowledged earlier that hiding within inquisition was a possibility if not active and it is indeed a way to learn the inquisition way of trade. Tradesets are a bit different (Inquisition do arrests before murders) but not that much, and other activities, like smuggling, could provide what is missing.

I don't see how that follows. We've seen innumerable instances of Inquisition agents practicing all sorts of tradecraft. Sure, the most visible members of the Inquisition are the priests attached to secular rulers and leaders, but they're hardly the only ones. The Sword of Schueler and the Rakurai, for example.

Joat42 wrote:

alj_sf wrote:Still the duration problem remains, the "org" is quite a bit too competent to not preexist our favorite Madam life, but then if it is centuries old, why was it never active ?

Maybe because the organization was created for a specific purpose or for a specific set of circumstances to occur. Maybe the organization was started by an order to keep tabs on the inquisition. There are several possibilities why the organization has been passive for so long.

The Church is supposed to keep Safehold on track, the Inquisition is supposed to keep the Church on track ... But who's supposed to keep the Inquisition on track? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Of course this can go on infinitely, but bear with me!)

Maybe the purpose of Aivah.org is to keep the Inquisition within bounds? Presumably started by an Archangel (and/or Seijin Kody?). And who's to say it hasn't been active before, just not in such a "direct action" approach. Perhaps in the past it's merely applied more subtle forms of leverage to influence church policy in certain areas at certain times. Yes, it failed when Clyntahn got himself elected, though even then it could've believed that the Church would sort things out in the end.

The worrying end to this train of thought is that in that case Aivah might be a true believer. Not in the CoGA but certainly in the plan for Safehold. In which case whilst she might be prepared to support the Church of Charis, telling her the "Real Truth"(TM) would be a really bad idea?

evilauthor wrote:
Wouldn't that be worth a few drama points?

Think it's time to fire that particular gun?

Doesn't matter, Aivah hates Cyntahn & Co enough that she isn't going to have a 'bad reaction". Indeed, she seems to be doing her absolute best to have a "good" one--whatever Merlin says next.

AClone wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
Wouldn't that be worth a few drama points?

Think it's time to fire that particular gun?

Doesn't matter, Aivah hates Cyntahn & Co enough that she isn't going to have a 'bad reaction". Indeed, she seems to be doing her absolute best to have a "good" one--whatever Merlin says next.

Good observation. I wonder, we know that Aivah believes in God and is quite devout. But that also describes Mikael Staynair... Do we have any textev where Aivah refers to Langhorne or the archangels devoutly or other than in a passing figure of speech?

Don

AClone wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
Wouldn't that be worth a few drama points?

Think it's time to fire that particular gun?

Doesn't matter, Aivah hates Cyntahn & Co enough that she isn't going to have a 'bad reaction". Indeed, she seems to be doing her absolute best to have a "good" one--whatever Merlin says next.

Possibly, but what happens AFTER Clyntahn is defeated? She could take his place as their most dangerous opponent.

Hmm... could make for an interesting sequel war. You know, the one where the Truth gets revealed to the war. And Aivah on the other side.

Hello RunsForCelery!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you very much!

It's a wonderful snippet, as you obviously know.

I thought I'd posted my thanks for this snippet last Saturday night, my apologies that it didn't.

This is better than I'd expected or hoped for, Nynian's recognition of physical and character trait aspects Merlin couldn't change indicate her great perceptive detection of what seems obvious after the fact, I particularly liked the hands.

Assuming we get a followup snippet where Nynian reveals more of where her insights come from, I suspect part will be from reading a copy of the Holy Writ from before the the War against the fallen, that her convent has quietly kept and special students are allowed to read.

The whole long list of things like near-oak etc indicate comparisons with a prior planet, that Nynian/Aivah could have noticed for herself or been part of her convent's quiet schooling in logic etc, the purpose not being what most students and visitors assume, as many SF stories have illustrated.

But the other wonderful thing about this snippet is the back story we're about to get, if the snippets are sequential, even if its mainly about seijin Kody is the prequel if you will.

Given all that Merlin and the inner circle don't know about the war of the fallen, and the time following, this is extremely important intel that Nynian apparently has had access to.

It might include details of who built the temple...

Her father was Grand Vicar Zhoel who reigned from 858 [~12-18 years?], at whose death the Go4 took over from whatever combine had held the reins previously about 20 years before Merlin showed up.

Regarding the suggested intel networks, the circle's penetration of the vicarate provided plenty of cover to any apparent agent if caught, 'part of the onion' if you will.

We have textev that Nynian kept her own network(s) separate from the circle's, but according to Adorai, she was an agent of the circle for decades, so not even Adorai knows everything about her adopted sister's operations.

The probably small out-of-the-way convent's reputation for turning our wonderful young ladies and fine spiritually tuned sisters/nuns may have recommended it to her father when she was 12, not knowing its well hidden secrets and agenda, that like St Zherneau didn't share everything with all who came to study.

How they recognised her as one to trust is a story I want to read, hopefully soon.

Pretty please?

Thanks again for such a great snippet!

L

May to June 2015 now looks great!

Hi Don,

We don't, which for someone that is devout as Adorai says, is now rather peculiar, though her avowed profession's close contact with the vicarate provided the reason previously.

At the moment she appears to be firmly in the Seijin Merlin fan club, which might make Merlin far less lonely, and provide a reward for fighting so hard, and knock that depression a bit further back.

How he explains things will be fascinating, and why I think the next snippet won't be sequential.

L

n7axw wrote:

AClone wrote:*quote="evilauthor"*

Wouldn't that be worth a few drama points?

Think it's time to fire that particular gun?

Doesn't matter, Aivah hates Cyntahn & Co enough that she isn't going to have a 'bad reaction". Indeed, she seems to be doing her absolute best to have a "good" one--whatever Merlin says next.*quote*

Good observation. I wonder, we know that Aivah believes in God and is quite devout. But that also describes Mikael Staynair... Do we have any textev where Aivah refers to Langhorne or the archangels devoutly or other than in a passing figure of speech?

Don