Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

An RPG is a rocket (as the name suggests) so isn't in quite the same class as a 37mm cannon or recoilless cannon. It certainly would be useful in attacking fixed fortifications, but less useful against troops in the open. Having an RPG with each squad or platoon to shoot in attacks against improvised fortifications when counterattacking the CoGA or dealing with a rear guard while chasing a defeated formation might be handy, but once again we need to apply a calculus including factors such as production capacity at home, strategic transportation capacity, logistics capacity in theatre and even the amount of time needed to train troops in the tactical employment of weapons.

For the time and place being described in Safehold, I might still suggest a 3"/81mm mortar holds a distinct edge by virtue of its low cost and relatively small size compared to an artillery piece, as well as the high rate of fire and the multiple natures of ammunition available. Dropping rounds behind the castle wall is almost as good as blowing off the castle doors (better, since you still need to pass through the defensive works built into the gateway once you blast the door), you can drop HE on advancing infantry or cavalry, or blind them with a smokescreen when you want to move. If white phosphorus is available, then you have a very nasty incendiary weapon as well. Mortars also have the virtue of being able to fire into targets behind reverse slopes so CoGA reserves can be attacked if they try to hide behind a hill or in a ravine. Since the mortars themselves can fire from behind a slope, the CoGA will have a difficult time finding and suppressing them with their current technology, tactics and training.

Every soldier in the company or battalion can carry a mortar bomb or two, and dump them by the mortar pit as they file by, so supply for the mortar platoon isn't an issue in the short run (the company quartermaster can carry another 2-300 bombs in his wagons, and the battalion quartermaster has even more in his stockpile).

So perhaps the question is will the ICA go for very simple trench mortars like the 3" Stokes mortar of Great War fame, or more expensive and elaborate ones like the German Minenwerfer, which had greater range and accuracy than the Stokes mortar, but took more resources to build and operate (although still less than a field cannon)?

The first step is getting smokeless powder into the field. That alone makes so many other things possible. Even if the AOG gets its breach loading rifles into the field for the next campaign season they will not expect the increased range and fire power of the weapons Charis will be using. When in reality they are not. The shock won't last long but i think that it could turn a pivotal battle in favor of Charis.

The shear amount of people that that the AOG has at its disposal coupled with the innovations that it is making is going to make thing more difficult for Charis down the road. There are still going to be some surprises and I have a feeling that Merlin and NImue are going to have more of a roll as this conflict continues. Its really going to come down to the people in charge and any info that can be used from the SNARCS. Hopefully the AOG will continue to put less than capable individuals in charge of their forces.

Smokeless powder will be a great improvement, but i think of it more as a refinement of what currently exists. Developing high explosives like TNT will make a very spectacular difference in artillery (and explosive ordinance in general), so should be followed up with all due speed.

I would also restate that improvements in signals and organization will make the ICA forces much more efficient even without updating their weapons. Modernizing the military headquarters to a General Staff system, for example, or providing heliographs and signal lamps to signals detachments to increase the range signals can be sent will be an even bigger shock to the CoGA forces than automatic weapons, since the ICA forces will have more reach and be able to move and fight faster and more efficiently than before.

Having an ICA regiment suddenly appear on a flank or in the rear, or encountering them far beyond what you think is the limit of their logistics (now they have a G4 branch planning and managing the supply chain) will be extremely unsettling, to say the least.

It was said of the Napoleon that the Allies never found his equal as a commander. They did, however, find- finally- commanders equal to or better than his subordinates. So they beat all the other armies, until he finally surrendered. (one could quibble I suppose)

HOWEVER, -MY POINT here is that I believe Charis's best non- weapon "weapon" is:
1) the competence of it's commanders.
2) And the ability of Cayleb to know very quickly if remedial action is necessary before disaster strikes. If I recall correctly, it is the blunders on the commander's part that usually lead to disaster.

I would suggest that the training of junior leaders continue.

Thucydides wrote:(SNIP)

For the time and place being described in Safehold, I might still suggest a 3"/81mm mortar holds a distinct edge by virtue of its low cost and relatively small size compared to an artillery piece, as well as the high rate of fire and the multiple natures of ammunition available.

(SNIP)

Doesn't the EOC already have mortars?

Yes they have mortars, but what I am suggesting is they put the time and effort into improving mortars.

To give you an example, the 3'" Trench mortar of the Great War had a range of about 750m, which isn't bad considering the role it had and the conditions it was being used under. By the time the L16 81mm mortar was introduced in 1965, mortars were capable of putting fire down on targets 5000m away, and modern ammunition can push the range out to almost 7000m. Self guided 81mm rounds have been developed, although for Safehold this type of ammunition isn't going to fly, for obvious reasons.

The L16 is pretty much the standard NATO mortar (even the United States uses it), it weighs 35kg complete, only needs a 3 man crew, is man portable (by really strong men!) has a "burst" firing rate of 20 RPM with a well trained crew, and can easily be carried in a wide variety of vehicles (wagons and boats in the case of Safehold), or even broken down and strapped to a mule.

All in all, a pretty handy piece for the ICA and Imperial Marines to have, and one which "could" be developed relatively quickly and produced in large numbers to give even battalion sized units a big punch.

Thucydides wrote:Yes they have mortars, but what I am suggesting is they put the time and effort into improving mortars.

To give you an example, the 3'" Trench mortar of the Great War had a range of about 750m, which isn't bad considering the role it had and the conditions it was being used under. By the time the L16 81mm mortar was introduced in 1965, mortars were capable of putting fire down on targets 5000m away, and modern ammunition can push the range out to almost 7000m. Self guided 81mm rounds have been developed, although for Safehold this type of ammunition isn't going to fly, for obvious reasons.

The L16 is pretty much the standard NATO mortar (even the United States uses it), it weighs 35kg complete, only needs a 3 man crew, is man portable (by really strong men!) has a "burst" firing rate of 20 RPM with a well trained crew, and can easily be carried in a wide variety of vehicles (wagons and boats in the case of Safehold), or even broken down and strapped to a mule.

All in all, a pretty handy piece for the ICA and Imperial Marines to have, and one which "could" be developed relatively quickly and produced in large numbers to give even battalion sized units a big punch.

Oh. I agree that improving the technology of mortars (and regular artillery as well) is important - but the problem remains that currently they are unable to use their artillery/mortars to their limits - due to C3I limitations.

Rather then improving the weapons (as you are recommending), I think better Command/Control/Communications and Intelligence would be more cost efficient.

After all, there is no point being able to shoot a mortar out to 5000 meters, if your ability to spot and correct fire means that you are effective blind-firing. (The same arguement holds for artillery - where a simple hydro-pneumatic recoil system would increase its effectiveness two-fold.)


So, personally, I would work on better C3I (especially the communications and control), while keeping to slowly develop the better mortars/artillery to be introduced when their increased range can be used.....

Hi Thucydides,

I'll take a panzerfaust first, being pointed out many times here as being much simpler to make than an RPG; NTM firing straight HE, smoke or incendiary warheads with just 3.4-6.7 oz of black powder to 30-100m, since Howsmyn has promised incendiary and smoke grenades besides the current improved gunpowder ones, so they could be fielded before the end of this war.

Granted its warhead is slow (~30-60m/s), but the -150 version (150m range) was reusable up to 10 times with a 85m/s velocity, quite useful with a shotgun type anti-personnel warhead, especially against cavalry.

Given its disposable one-shot nature, I can't help wondering if the firing tube could be made out of simple iron, though that might mean easy copying by the enemy.

OTOH, the ICA will be rarely retreating so the odds of the Go4 finding out what these 'mini-cannon' are is rather remote, given how clueless they still are about the 3" mortars.

While they might be taken from ambushed scout-snipers etc, the odds of producing a comparable response before being beaten are pretty long in my opinion.

L

PS, I thought they would have been very helpful in Dahak's universe, in Heirs of Empire, but RFC had other ideas.

L

Thucydides wrote:An RPG is a rocket (as the name suggests) so isn't in quite the same class as a 37mm cannon or recoilless cannon. It certainly would be useful in attacking fixed fortifications, but less useful against troops in the open. Having an RPG with each squad or platoon to shoot in attacks against improvised fortifications when counterattacking the CoGA or dealing with a rear guard while chasing a defeated formation might be handy, but once again we need to apply a calculus including factors such as production capacity at home, strategic transportation capacity, logistics capacity in theatre and even the amount of time needed to train troops in the tactical employment of weapons.

For the time and place being described in Safehold, I might still suggest a 3"/81mm mortar holds a distinct edge by virtue of its low cost and relatively small size compared to an artillery piece, as well as the high rate of fire and the multiple natures of ammunition available. Dropping rounds behind the castle wall is almost as good as blowing off the castle doors (better, since you still need to pass through the defensive works built into the gateway once you blast the door), you can drop HE on advancing infantry or cavalry, or blind them with a smokescreen when you want to move. If white phosphorus is available, then you have a very nasty incendiary weapon as well. Mortars also have the virtue of being able to fire into targets behind reverse slopes so CoGA reserves can be attacked if they try to hide behind a hill or in a ravine. Since the mortars themselves can fire from behind a slope, the CoGA will have a difficult time finding and suppressing them with their current technology, tactics and training.

Every soldier in the company or battalion can carry a mortar bomb or two, and dump them by the mortar pit as they file by, so supply for the mortar platoon isn't an issue in the short run (the company quartermaster can carry another 2-300 bombs in his wagons, and the battalion quartermaster has even more in his stockpile).

So perhaps the question is will the ICA go for very simple trench mortars like the 3" Stokes mortar of Great War fame, or more expensive and elaborate ones like the German Minenwerfer, which had greater range and accuracy than the Stokes mortar, but took more resources to build and operate (although still less than a field cannon)?

Hi Mwadwell,

Given the current 3" mortar ranges out to 2500 yards, which has yet to be fully exploited in battle yet, replacing the gunpowder with a TNT filler seems a much bigger force multiplier that can be implemented far sooner.

Of course, I'm in favor of a 120mm mortar with TNT filler and cordite/ballistite etc ASAP, but that's just me.

L

MWadwell wrote:

Thucydides wrote:Yes they have mortars, but what I am suggesting is they put the time and effort into improving mortars.

To give you an example, the 3'" Trench mortar of the Great War had a range of about 750m, which isn't bad considering the role it had and the conditions it was being used under. By the time the L16 81mm mortar was introduced in 1965, mortars were capable of putting fire down on targets 5000m away, and modern ammunition can push the range out to almost 7000m. Self guided 81mm rounds have been developed, although for Safehold this type of ammunition isn't going to fly, for obvious reasons.

The L16 is pretty much the standard NATO mortar (even the United States uses it), it weighs 35kg complete, only needs a 3 man crew, is man portable (by really strong men!) has a "burst" firing rate of 20 RPM with a well trained crew, and can easily be carried in a wide variety of vehicles (wagons and boats in the case of Safehold), or even broken down and strapped to a mule.

All in all, a pretty handy piece for the ICA and Imperial Marines to have, and one which "could" be developed relatively quickly and produced in large numbers to give even battalion sized units a big punch.

Oh. I agree that improving the technology of mortars (and regular artillery as well) is important - but the problem remains that currently they are unable to use their artillery/mortars to their limits - due to C3I limitations.

Rather then improving the weapons (as you are recommending), I think better Command/Control/Communications and Intelligence would be more cost efficient.

After all, there is no point being able to shoot a mortar out to 5000 meters, if your ability to spot and correct fire means that you are effective blind-firing. (The same arguement holds for artillery - where a simple hydro-pneumatic recoil system would increase its effectiveness two-fold.)


So, personally, I would work on better C3I (especially the communications and control), while keeping to slowly develop the better mortars/artillery to be introduced when their increased range can be used.....

It's not like I have anything against weapons like the Panserfaust, Lyonheart, but I am trying to do the mental calculus based on things like production resources, transportation, training time and the tactical threats that are being described in the series.

While in the ideal world, we would have the ability to provide the troops with absolutely everything, there are lots of limitations both here and on Safehold. If there weren't, all the ICA and Imperial Marines would simply jump in wearing powered battle armour from Robert A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". (This would also solve a lot of issues when humanity goes back into space as well.... ).

The sorts of tactical threats which prompted the development of the Panzerfaust, PIAT and Bazooka don't really exist on Safehold, while the sorts of threats and tactical situations which mortars excel in certainly do exist. Like I have been saying upthread, mortars are cheap and easy to build and to man, so in terms of giving the ICA and Marine forces a large punch to deal with what they are most likely to face, mortars would be ideal.

Fire control has been mentioned as well, so having forward observers with the ability to communicate to the gun line is probably the biggest non weapons development that can be made. (FOO parties can also communicate back and adjust machine-gun fire when those are developed. A properly emplaced machine-gun can engage targets over 2500m away with an observer to adjust the fire).

And since OWL and Merlin "could" drop hints, the 81mm mortar could evolve into something like the 2B9 Vasilek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2B9_Vasilek which would provide high rates of both direct and indirect fire on targets. Even the Harchongese will not be able to absorb that sort of firepower and punishment.